Elysian Shadows

Avansc seriously, what the hell did I ever do to you? Every post you've ever done on this topic was filled with nothing but negativity SPECIFICALLY directed towards me.It was almost as if you were just WAITING for me to respond. And you're saying that for what a few thousand stupid extremists did that you're going to suddenly classify each and every individual as a horrible hate-mongering group of people? And I wasn't saying that they have the right to enact violence against America. I feel that any act of violence is morally wrong in every aspect. (especially stupid)

If this tool decides to burn this book, and innocent people get killed, its not because of it, or his fault. These people are looking for an excuse to justify their actions.

I agree with you that that's nothing but senseless stupidity from their part but, he should still be held accountable because he knows DAMNED well that's what some of the extremists will do therefore it should partially be his fault. And it's stupid to just encourage the radicals to be even more violent.

All that I was merely saying is these sorts of idiots like that preist are not helping at all and that I think it's funny that people are wondering why the radicals are getting pissed off with morons like him. He is going to endanger the lives of our troops by doing stupid shit like that. I guarentee you the radical's first targets are going to be the troops that're stationed there.

And I wasn't even going to say shit about Timothy Mcvay (however you spell his last name) stop being so damned presumptious.

I think you might want to re read what i said, I EXPLICITLY said that i was not saying all muslims are radicals.

again, its not a few thousand, its 10's of millions, if not more.

You cannot hold someone accountable for someone else's actions. Just because it pisses them off, (which it should not if their faith had any substance) does not give them the right to be violent, nor does it give jackass' the right to say its his fault.

All I hear you saying is, this dude is endangering out troops and bla bla bla.. when you should be saying, wtf, these people are killing innocent people because a book got burnt, wtf is up with that... Just think about that for a second, there is something seriously wrong when you CHOOSE to focus on a person burning a book, hurting no one... rather then these other people killing innocent people..

We let these fucking chumm burn our flag, laugh and be jovial in the streets after innocent people get killed, why, because we are tolerant? And we dont say shit, but when some guy wants to burn a book, we get all ansy.. there is something seriously wrong with that picture.

edit: these are just every day poeple, not dude in caves, just your everyday muslim, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3u3rMIs5hw

again, its not a few thousand, its 10's of millions, if not more.

You and I both don't know that. Stop pulling numbers from your ass.

You cannot hold someone accountable for someone else's actions. Just because it pisses them off, (which it should not if their faith had any substance) does not give them the right to be violent, nor does it give jackass' the right to say its his fault.

Which is EXACTLY why I said PARTIALLY. I think you might need to "re-read" some of my recent posts as well instead of jumping to conclusions dude. I'll take it that you're referring to me as one of those "jackasses".

All I hear you saying is, this dude is endangering out troops and bla bla bla.. when you should be saying, wtf, these people are killing innocent people because a book got burnt, wtf is up with that... Just think about that for a second, there is something seriously wrong when you CHOOSE to focus on a person burning a book, hurting no one... rather then these other people killing innocent people..

Because the main focus of this topic is about that dumbshit priest. I thought it was already understood that there are sick poor depraved bastards out there that'd want to lop your head off in a heartbeat for insulting their primitive dessert tribe religion.

Again dude I seriously don't know what I did to piss you off but, I want to let you know that I did ABSOLUTELY nothing to you.

Not even partially dude. You need to learn what personal responsibility is. I cant blame anyone else for my actions, even if their actions affect me on an emotional level.

There are many many studies around the world about what percentage of muslims are "radical" or "fundimental", some studies show as high as 20 percent, but you'll find most are in the 10-15 percent range.. round 200 million.. Do some research.

Its appalling that the main topic is about a back wood, 50 follower redneck, as apposed to the threat and in fact action of killing any american. It boggles my fucking mind. thats my problem.

The guy called it off anyway, he's not gonna do it and advises no one to do it as well.

Can I have a celebratory hunting of a chupacabra day? Seriously... that would epic

Of course. Although it may offend the cultists who worship them.

Heh, I'll force them to eat the corpse

Hell the people in the Middle East better be pissed, I sure would if some foreign country deployed their troop in my homeland...

davidthefat wrote:Hell the people in the Middle East better be pissed, I sure would if some foreign country deployed their troop in my homeland...

It's unlikely to happen to you though since you actually have quite a civil and organized government that ensures your protection. You don't live in a completely fractured state where tribal leaders can declare a women stoned to death for her lack of obedience.

Not saying I totally agree with the role that the US (and Canada) have played in various countries in the Middle East, but what you said really doesn't apply because it's an entirely different setting. I think the US and Russia can both be blamed for arming and supporting extreme militant groups for several decades during the Cold War which definitely didn't do anything positive for stability in the region. That doesn't mean though that they have the right to abduct, torture, and kill innocents because they're foreign. Justifying their actions based upon "being pissed" is ridiculous.

Sometimes I'm pissed when some idiot cuts me off in traffic, I honk, then he slams on his brake lights to be a jerk. Do I run out and smash his window at the next set of lights? Of course not, that would be ridiculous. Do I feel like he deserves it? Perhaps, but justifying my actions based upon a strong emotional state like that is poor-decision making and I know better. The reality though is that those strong emotions exist, and they're often preyed upon or through manipulated (like in Islamic schools that indoctrinate kids from a young age to be suicide bombers). Here's a good video showing an example of massive crowds showing their hate for India:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4GjrwQmxAA


I doubt that many of them have any personally developed reasons for hating India. Most likely (especially judging from the kids reactions) they've been told their entire lives that India is evil and they need to "liberate" the Indian states so they can bring "freedom"* (or at least their interpretation of the concept - watch the video to see the single choice that exemplifies "freedom" in one individual's mind). There have been long-running issues in the region and the Indian Army is not totally in the right, but neither are the "peaceful" protests which all too often involve pelting stones.

*I think the whole "bringing freedom" to a country concept is a poor reason for any conflict. Specific reasons like genocide or mass human-rights abuse are more specific, but freedom is ill-defined (despite the fact that many people, myself included, I feel quite strongly about it on a personal level).

EccentricDuck wrote:

davidthefat wrote: *I think the whole "bringing freedom" to a country concept is a poor reason for any conflict. Specific reasons like genocide or mass human-rights abuse are more specific, but freedom is ill-defined (despite the fact that many people, myself included, I feel quite strongly about it on a personal level).

First of all, I don't get why US deploys troops in the middle east while there is a nation full of poverty and full of human rights violations and that nation is hated by everyone... The Nation is North Korea... Why do they not do anything about it? Why just talk is North Korea is just trying to get more support food from the Red Cross? Those all goes to the troops in NK... Yes I am Korean and I do have a keen interest in it. But I am pissed about USA just talking for 50 something years.

Well the middle east for the most part has a more immediate threat to the US, although NK might be on the horizon soon.
And the US has like 30-40ish military bases in south korea, trust me, they are keeping a very close eye on them.

Yeah, avansc is right, the US keeps a very close eye on North Korea. They've been doing a lot of naval maneuvers and training lately with South Korea with the recent events. I know Canada has too - there was a South Korean frigate docked in Vancouver (where I live) just last month.

The problem with North Korea is that they have fairly substantial firepower. They may not have much in the way of long-range precision missiles (though firing at and destroying a South Korean ship shows that their mid-range capabilities are certainly threatening) but that doesn't mean they're incapable of causing large amounts of damage if provoked. I don't think most leaders trust that North Korea's "great leader" is entirely stable. Cults of personality and ultra-nationalism are infectious. There's a couple interesting examples of this during WWII:
- France's Maginot line which would have done wonders against a WWI style invasion. Sadly, trench warfare was not the primary method of waging battles and a combination of dive bombers, tanks, and half-track infantry carriers caused the line to be fairly quickly overrun and the Germans came rolling in to Paris in about a month. Beforehand, the French were convinced of the impenetrability of the line.
- Similarly, before the US, Britain, and Canada reclaimed the shores in France the Germans had built up fortifications at key strategic locations along the coast and placed obstacles for tanks. There was apparently sentiments that they were now unstoppable and the coast was impenetrable. Despite the fact that it came at heavy losses, the three countries took back the shore with a similar tactic to the Germans (fast, coordinated multi-point strike on multiple fronts before they could coordinate a counterstrike).

I wouldn't doubt that Kim Jong Il, convinced of his own superiority as a "god" (there's some crazy propaganda there), would be totally willing to wage war. He's already fired a rocket near Japan and sunk a South Korean vessel. Add to that the fact that China partially supports North Korea and there are also political issues regarding China's claims on the oceans in that region (it claims large amounts of ocean that are considered open waters and has threatened to fire upon foreign vessels in it's claimed waters). Add to that the fact that North Korea has nuclear capabilities (or is believed to) and China does. An invasion really isn't going to happen unless North Korea does something first. It'd be a political mess that they just couldn't justify with China and Kim Jong Il routinely threatens war in the name of "self-defense".

The problem is that, despite the fact that North Korea's economy is pretty much sealed shut and appears to be in the hole, China supplies massive amounts of energy and food to it. That means that North Korea is unlikely to collapse on its own (although that'd be scary too). Yeah, I agree that it's a problem, but it's a tricky situation. The thing about countries like Afghanistan and Iraq is that they really don't have the same capabilities and the political situation is different. Also, North Korea seems to be prodding at the US and South Korea - trying to get them to act/respond. I doubt that they'll invade, but I don't doubt that we'll see more rocket strikes.


Wow I'm a history/political nerd

Also, North Korea seems to be prodding at the US and South Korea - trying to get them to act/respond. I doubt that they'll invade, but I don't doubt that we'll see more rocket strikes.

This is merely a theory from me but when and if NKorea decides to make any sort of invasion whether it be on South Korean (most likely target) or even American soil there'll probably be a 90% chance that China will have their backs. And the middle east might see it as a time to react as well as every anti-American nation and it'll pretty much be a WW3. And then our allies will be at our back and we'll pretty much be at each other's throats like lions. *shudders* the mere thought of that scares me.

But I personally am starting to see North Korea and China as a pretty large threat. They might not be an IMMEDIATE threat but sooner or later something's going to happen and someone's going to snap....and when that happens it will not be pretty. It doesn't even really matter if China doesn't pack enough superior technology or firepower. The mere fact that they have literally more than a BILLION people to their disposal is more than enough to be a huge threat.

I just hope that we'll (America) will stop dividing themselves over stupid politcal campaigns and get their arses in gear and Unite if not for a moment and defend our freedoms and homelands as we've once done years ago on the battlefields of WW2.

That is indeed a scary thought, and I don't see it as entirely implausible. China's been throwing its weight around more and more as it becomes a stronger economic power. It's scary to think of what will happen when they surpass the US in GDP (it will happen eventually, even if GDP/capita never reaches the same level). On top of that, most of the countries you mentioned are are referring to have some form of internet/media censorship. In many cases it's very robust, like in China (or North Korea, but it's almost entirely locked down - the scary part about China is they HAVE functional internet AND it's strongly controlled... there's no stronger form of control than that which gives the user free choice to choose only the content you decide they should see).

There are a couple of things that really frighten me about China. First is its strong and increasing territorial claims (particularly on the ocean). It's trying to develop a sphere of influence. China routinely bullies many of the countries around it in negotiations over a variety of issues. It goes one-on-one with them and then extorts them economically (bilateral as opposed to multilateral - it works to their advantage).

Second is China's increasing use of information technology in warfare. By that I mean both propaganda of its people and other nations within its influence, and China training people to break into foreign computer systems. It's been happening for a few years now that there have been reports of companies and governments agencies reporting being broken into by an address that they managed to trace back to China. There was/is actually a Chinese strategic plan, particularly regarding the US, that in the case of hostile conflict they would try to take down the electrical grid. Many companies have reported intrusions from both Chinese and Russian sources. I'm sure there's a ton of speculation regarding this issue, and there's very little information tracing things like this to specific sources, but there's definitely a pattern (of course patterns appear in all kinds of places where they don't exist as well - correlation does not imply causation).

Strategically it makes sense. China and Russia are both militarily powerful but both lack the ability to exert much of that power quickly or over long distances. They don't have the ability to arrive at any point in the world with soldiers, equipment, and tactical support in a coordinated manner and short time period the way the US can. Disabling or even damaging a countries electrical infrastructure remotely is a huge tactical advantage that would also be much cheaper than having large numbers of aircraft carriers, south-pacific island bases, and the latest military hardware.

Of course, reports like this are always nice to hear:
http://gizmodo.com/5449037/google-hacke ... right-back

Once again, Google for the win!