Elysian Shadows

D-e-X wrote: So, this is one of the more idiotic replies that I've seen lately. Just initially, Java is an excellent place to start as far as programming and game development goes.. I mean, there's a reason so many unis use Java as an introductory language. The funny thing is also that this is about *STARTING* doing something, he's not developing AAA titles, Java will suffice PLENTY, so don't give us that "if you're serious about the industry, you have to choose the one and only holy standard path which includes 'this and that', 'cause that's what some other guy on the internet said was best!"

He asked what we think about "gamedevelopment with JAVA" and I offered my opinion on what I think about game development with Java.

D-e-X wrote: Also, the completely astounding thing about your reply is that you'd tell someone to start with a scripting language to build their foundation up to eventually progress onto C/++, and then you're suddenly talking about challenges and how he could learn 6502 assembly and start developing games for an old ass console if he's interested. You see what I mean? Kind of tough to take you seriously.

I see no problem with developing games for "an old ass console" because it teaches you the value of things like pointers and bitwise operations. It also teaches you to figure out how to do more with less essentially which if you ask me is pretty dang useful. Note that I said it as an alternative if he was interested and that it could yield some useful knowledge, I wasn't saying that it was the definite route to go and I went on to conclude with "Ultimately what route you decide to take is entirely up to you".

Light-Dark wrote:

D-e-X wrote: So, this is one of the more idiotic replies that I've seen lately. Just initially, Java is an excellent place to start as far as programming and game development goes.. I mean, there's a reason so many unis use Java as an introductory language. The funny thing is also that this is about *STARTING* doing something, he's not developing AAA titles, Java will suffice PLENTY, so don't give us that "if you're serious about the industry, you have to choose the one and only holy standard path which includes 'this and that', 'cause that's what some other guy on the internet said was best!"

He asked what we think about "gamedevelopment with JAVA" and I offered my opinion on what I think about game development with Java.

D-e-X wrote: Also, the completely astounding thing about your reply is that you'd tell someone to start with a scripting language to build their foundation up to eventually progress onto C/++, and then you're suddenly talking about challenges and how he could learn 6502 assembly and start developing games for an old ass console if he's interested. You see what I mean? Kind of tough to take you seriously.

I see no problem with developing games for "an old ass console" because it teaches you the value of things like pointers and bitwise operations. It also teaches you to figure out how to do more with less essentially which if you ask me is pretty dang useful. Note that I said it as an alternative if he was interested and that it could yield some useful knowledge, I wasn't saying that it was the definite route to go and I went on to conclude with "Ultimately what route you decide to take is entirely up to you".

No, he asked for thoughts on _STARTING_ programming then moving onto game development with Java...

The problem is that THAT has nothing to do in this thread... I know you're trying to be helpful, but there's a fine line between helpful and irrelevant as far as these kinds of topics go. If someone asked you for a good starting point when it comes to, say Physics.. would you go "Blabla classical mechanics, but well, if you want a challenge you can start with quantum mechanics, relativistic mechanics and QFT!" This guy is trying to figure out where to start, be concise and be realistic. :}

And yes, you're right, it MIGHT be useful to know those things, but hardly important to begin with. Also, yes I noted that, hence "and then you're suddenly talking about challenges and how he could learn 6502 assembly and start developing games for an old ass console if he's interested" <- The last part there, see that? So I know you weren't advicing it, but that's not what I'm talking about.

Alright gentlemen, let's keep it professional.

D-e-X wrote:And yes, you're right, it MIGHT be useful to know those things, but hardly important to begin with.

This is an opinion, and one with which I sorely disagree with. It is absolutely necessary to the understand the fundamentals that one would take from dabbling in assembly, even when using interpreted languages. While I agree that assembly is definitely not the place to start for those interested in game development, I don't think the concepts should be entirely ignored out of fear or otherwise.

The most important thing is to start making something.

If you chose the "wrong" tool for your long-term goals, you will learn that through experience. The best part about programming is that pretty much every core skill is transferable to another language. Once you have a firm grasp of the fundamentals, learning a new syntax is cake.

dandymcgee wrote:Alright gentlemen, let's keep it professional.

D-e-X wrote:And yes, you're right, it MIGHT be useful to know those things, but hardly important to begin with.

This is an opinion, and one with which I sorely disagree with. It is absolutely necessary to the understand the fundamentals that one would take from dabbling in assembly, even when using interpreted languages. While I agree that assembly is definitely not the place to start for those interested in game development, I don't think the concepts should be entirely ignored out of fear or otherwise.

The most important thing is to start making something.

If you chose the "wrong" tool for your long-term goals, you will learn that through experience. The best part about programming is that pretty much every core skill is transferable to another language. Once you have a firm grasp of the fundamentals, learning a new syntax is cake.

Yeah, that's also your opinion about that. I also never mentioned anything about entirely ignoring anything, my point was merely that it MIGHT be useful, as in to know about bitwise operations, pointers and techniques for limitation(s), but it's only useful depending on context.

I certainly disagree, every "core skill" is NOT transferable to any another language. The fundamentals when it comes to programming are not transparent, there are different paradigms and different designs. The languages are just tools, so I'd be really careful about generalizations like that. It might contribute to the learning curve, but it's by no means a guarantee that it's just "learning a new syntax" once you know the fundamentals of one paradigm or one subset.

"The most important thing is to start making something." Exactly my point.

I tend to be of the thought that "If you know one high level language you really know them all". It's certainly possible to begin learning programming with a language like Java or C++. Matter of fact, that's where I started. The finer details of the language presentation are largely irrelevant. I don't necessarily need to know how the language run-time performs the tasks it does. I'm largely unconcerned with calling convention and parameter passing. I can disregard these things and still make something work reasonably well and still grasp the finer points of programming concepts. Now might I be able to write more efficient, portable, and safe code by understanding the implementation details? Sure. That said, I think C++ and Java are both perfectly suitable "starter" languages. No assembly required (heh heh...see what I did there?)

Higher level language constructs that the language was never meant to conceptualize can also be realized. There are so many design patterns that have evolved simply because of the deficiency of a language and the lack of an alternative. Enough to make your head spin. The concept of taking something that shouldn't work and MAKING it work is nothing new. You can bastardize any language to do anything. So "suitability" is a bit of a red herring because the alternative may be even less appealing than "bastardization".

That said, I think it's ALWAYS a good thing to know as much as you can about the architecture and implementation because it will tell you something about not only the efficiency of the program, but its security as well. This is not required to write a program, however.

When it comes to game development, I really don't see any problem diving into C, C++, or Java. I've nursed those from other languages into very good C++ programmers with great ease. Concepts are critical to any solution and concepts are largely independent of the language expression because the manifestation of the solution may take multiple forms based on the rules of the language...not the other way around.

All right, so its been few weeks since I have seen this topic. And I can't believe what I see

So, FIRST OF ALL I would like to thank all of you for participating on this discussion.

I tried to figure something out. I wanted to learn Java and make games for Android, etc, then I thought about learning C# and XNA or MonoGame. Well awesome would be to have these things in brain and just only use them but I was really trying to figure what I will try to learn. I mean, what thing I will spend my time with.

One day, I was visiting my friends and I spent night there. In the morning, I turned my laptop on, and was browsing my old uncomplete projects in C++/SDL. I also find my ides written in txt files, my brain was suddenly showing flashes of images of games I would like bring to "life".

I was chating with one of my friends on Facebook and he told me, that it wouldn't be bad idea to start with the same like before. So I tried C++/SDL and I have to say that I kinda found myself in it again. But because I had some issues with SDL 2. I switched to SFML so, Now I am learning C++ again but instead of SDL I am learning SFML. I enjoy that, I like that and as you mentioned prertty often. Yes, I finaly started to do something!

So thank you ALL once again.
Wish you success with youor projects.

I think this matter can be closed

P.S. ConnorORT: Your music in ES is really something, pal! Keep up with the great work
P.S. #2 Sorry for mistakes, english is not my native language