Elysian Shadows

dandymcgee wrote:@Marcel - Could you please post a link to the beta? I looked all over the site but couldn't find it anywhere..

avansc wrote:I get what you are say, and tho i think you make some valid points, but much of this is counting chickens when you dont even have eggs.

Marcel's conjecture of ~$40k based on each subscriber purchasing the game for $10 is definitely extremely optimistic, but he was doing it to make the point that when we release the game, our Youtubian viewers are a pretty large potential market.

avansc wrote:Yes you'll have a few that buy the beta, but i put emphasis on "few", not to mention that you probably should take into consideration the 3-4 or how many years you have worked on this.

I would most certainly digress. Only a "few" out of multiple thousands of subscribers, viewers who haven't subscribed, and other people who would hear about ES by word of mouth? A "few" is not doing justice to our current publicity. When we launched ESRev2 and AiGD17--mere Youtube VIDEOS showing progress on the game, we got about 7k views in a single DAY. If that is any indication of the enthusiasm that will be present when we release the game (we will have even more subscribers and viewers by then), then we are most certainly guaranteed over a "few."

avansc wrote:Now dont get me wrong, i wish the absolute best for the team and the game, i hope its a great success. but in terms of having the ability to easily get your game to people, you just cant beat something like the xbox arcade what-cha-ma-call-it. the game runs on DC, linux, osx, psp.

I would digress yet again. Having to download a game from Xbox Live is easier than simply clicking a link on a website for a Win/OSX/Linux build? I don't think so. The DC will be a ready-to-burn ISO, and the PSP will be a ready-to-pop-on-flashcard binary. Regardless of how much more effort the last two take, you can't tell me that downloading an application for a PC is more of a nuisance than it is for XBLA.

avansc wrote:you to get the game/libgyro ported to to C#/xbox, i truly believe you can make real money there. Id be willing to wager that you could probably makes as much as 3-4 times the combined sales from the other platforms.

3-4 times the profit when Microsoft can literally take the majority of the profit? You just factored amount of time when complaining about our previous estimate:

avansc wrote:not to mention that you probably should take into consideration the 3-4 or how many years you have worked on this.

You should know that there is no "porting libGyro to XNA." It will be a 100% engine overhaul to go from natively compiled C/C++/ObjC to JIT compiled C# with the .NET framework. We all have plenty of experience with C#, but even then this would be an extremely daunting task. Ontop of the bullshit cut that Microsoft can take, I have heard of highly publicized iPhone ports literally being rejected simply because Microsoft didn't wish to promote a multiplatform game. That kind of bullshit makes my interest in an "Elysian Shadows XNA" next to NULL.

It sounds to me like you're romanticizing the entire XNA developer's club. It's a great thing. It's very nice to have your product on a network where Microsoft is promoting you (to an extent), and thousands of people can potentially purchase it with the click of a button. But that is not as beneficial to Elysian Shadows. We already have an established fanbase who will be ready to download for whatever platform when it comes out WITHOUT us having to give a portion of our sales to somebody else... if we even sell with a traditional fixed price to begin with.

avansc wrote:and perhaps its your semi witty arrogance that makes it all the more fun.

Call it as you will. I refer to it as defending our work from the ignorance of the masses...

GyroVorbis wrote:

avansc wrote:not to mention that you probably should take into consideration the 3-4 or how many years you have worked on this.

You should know that there is no "porting libGyro to XNA." It will be a 100% engine overhaul to go from natively compiled C/C++/ObjC to JIT compiled C# with the .NET framework. We all have plenty of experience with C#, but even then this would be an extremely daunting task. Ontop of the bullshit cut that Microsoft can take, I have heard of highly publicized iPhone ports literally being rejected simply because Microsoft didn't wish to promote a multiplatform game. That kind of bullshit makes my interest in an "Elysian Shadows XNA" next to NULL.

It sounds to me like you're romanticizing the entire XNA developer's club. It's a great thing. It's very nice to have your product on a network where Microsoft is promoting you (to an extent), and thousands of people can potentially purchase it with the click of a button. But that is not as beneficial to Elysian Shadows. We already have an established fanbase who will be ready to download for whatever platform when it comes out WITHOUT us having to give a portion of our sales to somebody else... if we even sell with a traditional fixed price to begin with.

Tell it like it is...

Yeah. Even if the team decides to sell ES, thanks to low platform dependence it would easily hold the ultra low price, since there would be no need to cut the profit into many pieces being left with nothing but pitiful remains. The main goal of project ES is to bring back the magic of 2d rpg to as many as possible, and if we can be rewarded / supported on the way, well.. woohoo. if not, there will be a torrent version for everyone to download. Worst case scenario: No one buys ES, but we get left with TONS of experience and a hell of a resume.

Also, it would be cool if everyone could stop comparing us to J-Force games. It's like comparing photosynthesis to Japaneese bill of rights. Just leave it be. If you say that we're both game developers of a sort, then I say that Japaneese plants also hold right to photosynthesis.

One point I'd like to make about Xbox Live Arcade (not Indie), as talked about in the link that Marcel posted, is that Microsoft has decided explicitly to NOT break the 70/30 split, despite what that article says. There was a clause in the initial contracts where Microsoft reserved the right to increase their share should they make large expenditures devotion to a particular title, but they've decided to back off on that since, a) developers didn't like it, b) they make more by promoting games anyway, and c) most of their promotion is internal or on their own websites - there's little in the way of additional expenditures anyway aside from having a couple staff devote a little bit of time to getting a title out there. Indie Games meanwhile has always been 70/30.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that there are costs for getting a game certified for Xbox Live Arcade - you need to pay for the approval process which can take a few months and then they decide when to release it. That's not the case with Indie Games (where the community reviews it, hence why you can only develop for Indie Games using their approved toolset which is XNA so as to reduce the number of potentially fatal bugs through relatively secure managed code). Falco is also right that there have been instances where Microsoft hasn't agreed to release games on Arcade (not Indie) because it was released on another platform first. I think this is less true with Steam, but they don't seem to like people releasing for Apple/PS3 first and then coming to them.

I've got to agree with avansc on the point about ease of download though. As soon as you mention ISO or binary I think you'd have lost 70%+ of non-devoted people who are initially interested in the game. I agree that most of the fans you have now, myself included, would download it in a heartbeat regardless of what format it was in, but for many people that's more daunting than you put it out to be. Downloading something off of an app store is REALLY easy. Especially on phones where you don't even have to buy "points", it just goes on your next bill. Points still encourage people to buy more than shelling out cash directly though (there's an interesting bit of psychology/behavioral science behind that regarding the separation of money and spending and it's also why it's so easy to spend too much via credit).

EccentricDuck wrote:I've got to agree with avansc on the point about ease of download though. As soon as you mention ISO or binary I think you'd have lost 70%+ of non-devoted people who are initially interested in the game. I agree that most of the fans you have now, myself included, would download it in a heartbeat regardless of what format it was in, but for many people that's more daunting than you put it out to be. Downloading something off of an app store is REALLY easy. Especially on phones where you don't even have to buy "points", it just goes on your next bill. Points still encourage people to buy more than shelling out cash directly though (there's an interesting bit of psychology/behavioral science behind that regarding the separation of money and spending and it's also why it's so easy to spend too much via credit).

The ISO/Binary was for the DC/PSP build. 99% of potential players would simply download an executable. I don't see how this is "daunting" or any less convenient than XBLA. Is it inconvenient to download anything from your browser?

I mentioned the ISO/Binary just for the sake of mentioning how the DC/PSP will be handled.

Ah, my bad.

I still think XBLA would grab a bigger audience (unless you got it up on a place like Steam). I guess it really depends where it was available. People regularly peruse both the app store for the IPhone and the games on Xbox Live Arcade. Indie games doesn't have quite the same audience, but it's definitely been gaining more attention than it used to since the quality of games has been going up and they're only $1-$5. I don't think you'd be going for Indie Games anyway - putting it up on something like Arcade would be more appropriate (like Braid).

EccentricDuck wrote:Ah, my bad.

I still think XBLA would grab a bigger audience (unless you got it up on a place like Steam). I guess it really depends where it was available. People regularly peruse both the app store for the IPhone and the games on Xbox Live Arcade. Indie games doesn't have quite the same audience, but it's definitely been gaining more attention than it used to since the quality of games has been going up and they're only $1-$5. I don't think you'd be going for Indie Games anyway - putting it up on something like Arcade would be more appropriate (like Braid).

Don't get me wrong, either. I know damn well that XBLA is a great audience, a great way to gain publicity, and a great platform to publish a title on.

Unfortunately for us, it just isn't really an option for our project.

EccentricDuck wrote:I've got to agree with avansc on the point about ease of download though. As soon as you mention ISO or binary I think you'd have lost 70%+ of non-devoted people who are initially interested in the game

What...? How does that lose non-devoted people? How ELSE would you distribute it?

EccentricDuck wrote:Ah, my bad.

I still think XBLA would grab a bigger audience (unless you got it up on a place like Steam). I guess it really depends where it was available. People regularly peruse both the app store for the IPhone and the games on Xbox Live Arcade. Indie games doesn't have quite the same audience, but it's definitely been gaining more attention than it used to since the quality of games has been going up and they're only $1-$5. I don't think you'd be going for Indie Games anyway - putting it up on something like Arcade would be more appropriate (like Braid).

I think putting it up on XBLA would be a horrible decision to be quite honest.
Sure it's possible to make more money through something like that, but then the game loses interest and credibility by having it go through that.

Think about it... if you see a shooter game that's on XBLA, you'll say:
> "Oh, just another shooter game. Nothing interesting here."
However, if you see a shooter someone made and it's for Window, Linux, Mac, PSP, and even Dreamcast!?
> "Woah!!! It's for ALL those platforms? That's awesome! I should check this out!"

On top of what the game will have to offer, but you can lose so much interest because of a typical approach of just judging a book by its cover.
I think staying off of XBLA is a good idea, plus porting the entire libGyro library along with the rest of the code is just too much of a hassle, and really not worth it in the long run.

And please note, this just just my opinion.

EDIT: Oh, and one more thing. The main reason (I'm sure) why the team hasn't really thought about this much for marketing is... well... THE GAME ISN'T EVEN DONE YET! Don't worry about where it's going to gain more audience until you have something to put out in the first place!

I get what you are say, and tho i think you make some valid points, but much of this is counting chickens when you dont even have eggs.

Haha. Actually, I'm pretty sure you don't get what I was trying to say...;p

I feel like you, and the majority of people in this thread, have missed entirely the point of my post.

All I was trying to say is this: We, the Elysian Shadows team, know what we're doing despite the fact that we're not flaunting it publicly.

Everything else I was trying to say was simply showing that we have a decent financial potential RIGHT NOW, as we currently stand, barely at the half-way point of the project. I was trying (and perhaps failing) at displaying our potential revenue base based on what an average viewer might know and ignoring all "insider" information I myself have.

My actual numbers were me simply poking fun at the whole, "Omg you have no plan" thing by refuting, in my own way, "Omg, you have no imagination!11one" Again, I was just trying to illustrate how illogical it is to question the ES team's financial potential when, with just the data drawn from our views and community numbers, you can see quite easily how revenue is possible.

As for all of the other fine discussion we've been having about which market will draw the most money, what we should port it to, etc...None of it matters (yet). First, we need to get the damned game done. ;p

Thanks to all supporters, and all of those actually willing to add financial support to projects such as this. I appreciate you folk more than I can say...But will not count on you being there when release day comes. =)

GyroVorbis wrote:

EccentricDuck wrote:Ah, my bad.

I still think XBLA would grab a bigger audience (unless you got it up on a place like Steam). I guess it really depends where it was available. People regularly peruse both the app store for the IPhone and the games on Xbox Live Arcade. Indie games doesn't have quite the same audience, but it's definitely been gaining more attention than it used to since the quality of games has been going up and they're only $1-$5. I don't think you'd be going for Indie Games anyway - putting it up on something like Arcade would be more appropriate (like Braid).

Don't get me wrong, either. I know damn well that XBLA is a great audience, a great way to gain publicity, and a great platform to publish a title on.

Unfortunately for us, it just isn't really an option for our project.

Yeah, good point. You don't need XNA for making Arcade Games, but you still need to run some implementation of Direct 3D as opposed to OpenGL (unlike every other system out there... apparently you can even do a OpenGL wrapper for PS3). I actually found a cool blog post from an indie developer with a similar multi-platform approach to you guys (they do PC, Mac, and Linux - not quite as broad but they have the PCs covered) talking about the problems they have with Direct3D and the reasons for choosing one platform over another:
http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/01/DirectX ... -revisited

It makes me think about my choice - though I don't regret learning C# and XNA so far since it's been a valuable learning experience.

LeonBlade wrote: I think putting it up on XBLA would be a horrible decision to be quite honest.
Sure it's possible to make more money through something like that, but then the game loses interest and credibility by having it go through that.

I'm not sure why you think putting something up on XBLA discredits it. I don't disagree that there's a ton of crap on Xbox live Indie Games (that's where Avatar Showdown is). There's also some good ones (more than there used to be) and Arcade has several good titles (check out Braid if you haven't and Limbo which came out fairly recently). Braid made its debut there and went to Steam later.

Yeah this is one of those things that I HAVE to invest in... you guys sell a game/demo I'll be working on getting it xD The only reason I didn't donate was because 1. I had nothing to make you guys do for it xD 2. I had no money and 3. if I had had money my parents wouldn't let me give it away to strangers on the internet xD if I had a credit or debit card I totally would though xD

EccentricDuck wrote:

LeonBlade wrote: I think putting it up on XBLA would be a horrible decision to be quite honest.
Sure it's possible to make more money through something like that, but then the game loses interest and credibility by having it go through that.

I'm not sure why you think putting something up on XBLA discredits it. I don't disagree that there's a ton of crap on Xbox live Indie Games (that's where Avatar Showdown is). There's also some good ones (more than there used to be) and Arcade has several good titles (check out Braid if you haven't and Limbo which came out fairly recently). Braid made its debut there and went to Steam later.

Yes I know, there is always the diamond in the rough. I don't think "credibility" was the correct word to use.
What I was trying to say, is that the game may lose a lot of interest due to the fact that there is such a large amount of games, it could be easily overseen.

And Braid eventually went on Steam and on PS3, because it did so well.
I haven't played it, I should sometime!

avansc wrote:IM ON YOUR SIDE.

We're taking sides? I wasn't aware that Soap360 started a war in the entirety of his two whole posts.

GyroVorbis wrote:

Soap360 wrote:the graphics don't look like they can match up to modern day PSP games.

Orly? And what if I were to tell you that the Dreamcast's GPU has four times the VRAM that the PSP has. What if I were to tell you that it can do effects in hardware that the PSP can't even do in software? Bumpmapping? What is your basis for making such a bold claim?

Instead of sounding unapproachable, perhaps you could ask the OP to further explicate his means for such a claim. Stating the graphical capabilities of the Dreamcast may be irrelevant in your response. Are you sure that Soap360 wasn't simply referring to the graphics of your game (pixel art), rather than contesting the graphical abilities of the consoles?

Arce wrote:What I have the hardest time understanding is how you, or anybody, can question financial potential.

How is the OP questioning the financial potential of your project? It sounds like Soap360 is inquiring about the goal of your project, and its affect on your future endeavors.

GyroVorbis wrote:

Soap360 wrote:Im just subscribed to you guys a few days ago and I'd just like to know what's your plan?

Sorry to sound like such a prick, but these particular criticisms always get to me.

Criticisms? I've only seen questions or uneducated opinions. Perhaps you could point me to exactly where, in Soap360's two whole posts, the OP was criticizing, debating, or even insulting the Dreamcast, the ES team, or its users. It seems as though the OP is new to ES and its videos, and is therefore uneducated about the goals and specifications of this project, and has posed a few sincere questions to the team that have been putridly misinterpreted as offensive. Furthermore, the OP's second post on this forum even offered up an apology. It looks like Soap360 has taken an interest in your game, but these quick accusations may have already ran the OP off.

GyroVorbis wrote:

avansc wrote:Now dont get me wrong, i wish the absolute best for the team and the game, i hope its a great success. but in terms of having the ability to easily get your game to people, you just cant beat something like the xbox arcade what-cha-ma-call-it. the game runs on DC, linux, osx, psp.

I would digress yet again. Having to download a game from Xbox Live is easier than simply clicking a link on a website for a Win/OSX/Linux build? I don't think so. The DC will be a ready-to-burn ISO, and the PSP will be a ready-to-pop-on-flashcard binary. Regardless of how much more effort the last two take, you can't tell me that downloading an application for a PC is more of a nuisance than it is for XBLA.

This seems like a senseless subject of debate because it's all quite efficient, IMHO. Whilst the majority of downloads may be the PC builds, would you say that it's more likely that ES will be played in the long run more often on a console due to its nature?

LeonBlade wrote:the game may lose a lot of interest due to the fact that there is such a large amount of games, it could be easily overseen.

There is no loss for a port that doesn't exist, only Zuul!