Elysian Shadows

wearymemory wrote:

avansc wrote:IM ON YOUR SIDE.

We're taking sides? I wasn't aware that Soap360 started a war in the entirety of his two whole posts.

Avansc is simply stating the he's not an evil enemy trying to ruin the party by sharing what he thinks.

wearymemory wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote:

Soap360 wrote:the graphics don't look like they can match up to modern day PSP games.

Orly? And what if I were to tell you that the Dreamcast's GPU has four times the VRAM that the PSP has. What if I were to tell you that it can do effects in hardware that the PSP can't even do in software? Bumpmapping? What is your basis for making such a bold claim?

Instead of sounding unapproachable, perhaps you could ask the OP to further explicate his means for such a claim. Stating the graphical capabilities of the Dreamcast may be irrelevant in your response. Are you sure that Soap360 wasn't simply referring to the graphics of your game (pixel art), rather than contesting the graphical abilities of the consoles?

This is a typical newbie comment, if it was misunderstood it should be corrected by Soap360 if he wishes to continue that discussion.

wearymemory wrote:

Arce wrote:What I have the hardest time understanding is how you, or anybody, can question financial potential.

How is the OP questioning the financial potential of your project? It sounds like Soap360 is inquiring about the goal of your project, and its affect on your future endeavors.

This is a pointless topic at the moment.

wearymemory wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote:

Soap360 wrote:Im just subscribed to you guys a few days ago and I'd just like to know what's your plan?

Sorry to sound like such a prick, but these particular criticisms always get to me.

Criticisms? I've only seen questions or uneducated opinions. Perhaps you could point me to exactly where, in Soap360's two whole posts, the OP was criticizing, debating, or even insulting the Dreamcast, the ES team, or its users. It seems as though the OP is new to ES and its videos, and is therefore uneducated about the goals and specifications of this project, and has posed a few sincere questions to the team that have been putridly misinterpreted as offensive. Furthermore, the OP's second post on this forum even offered up an apology. It looks like Soap360 has taken an interest in your game, but these quick accusations may have already ran the OP off.

I'm sure everyone understood what Falco meant. You could just change that word "criticisms" to "comments" inside your head and be done with it. Everyone mixes up words every once in a while.

pritam wrote:

wearymemory wrote:

avansc wrote:IM ON YOUR SIDE.

We're taking sides? I wasn't aware that Soap360 started a war in the entirety of his two whole posts.

Avansc is simply stating the he's not an evil enemy trying to ruin the party by sharing what he thinks.

My question was a rhetorical one, but I appreciate the response.

pritam wrote:

wearymemory wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote:

Soap360 wrote:the graphics don't look like they can match up to modern day PSP games.

Orly? And what if I were to tell you that the Dreamcast's GPU has four times the VRAM that the PSP has. What if I were to tell you that it can do effects in hardware that the PSP can't even do in software? Bumpmapping? What is your basis for making such a bold claim?

Instead of sounding unapproachable, perhaps you could ask the OP to further explicate his means for such a claim. Stating the graphical capabilities of the Dreamcast may be irrelevant in your response. Are you sure that Soap360 wasn't simply referring to the graphics of your game (pixel art), rather than contesting the graphical abilities of the consoles?

This is a typical newbie comment, if it was misunderstood it should be corrected by Soap360 if he wishes to continue that discussion.

Who is incorrect: the writer, or the one who misunderstands him? Thanks for an excellent question! Anyway, I believe the fervor for an indictment should have subsided once Soap360 apologized for his/her seemingly pompous posts. If the OP meant to compare the graphical capabilities of the two consoles, then he/she should have explained their reasoning for doing so, but he/she did not, which gives credence to a misunderstanding. Furthermore, when addressing the consoles, the OP used the word "graphics," and not graphical capabilities or graphical/hardware specifications, which leads me to believe the obvious; that the OP was referring to the graphics. If so, then the OP makes a valid point, but ES wasn't made to compete with the graphics of modern day PSP games, it appeals to a genre of audience that takes pride in having class over crass.

pritam wrote:

wearymemory wrote:

Arce wrote:What I have the hardest time understanding is how you, or anybody, can question financial potential.

How is the OP questioning the financial potential of your project? It sounds like Soap360 is inquiring about the goal of your project, and its affect on your future endeavors.

This is a pointless topic at the moment.

Nonetheless, it was one of the OP's questions, and Arce had something to say about it; albeit belittling the inquirer in the process.

pritam wrote:

wearymemory wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote:

Soap360 wrote:Im just subscribed to you guys a few days ago and I'd just like to know what's your plan?

Sorry to sound like such a prick, but these particular criticisms always get to me.

Criticisms? I've only seen questions or uneducated opinions. Perhaps you could point me to exactly where, in Soap360's two whole posts, the OP was criticizing, debating, or even insulting the Dreamcast, the ES team, or its users. It seems as though the OP is new to ES and its videos, and is therefore uneducated about the goals and specifications of this project, and has posed a few sincere questions to the team that have been putridly misinterpreted as offensive. Furthermore, the OP's second post on this forum even offered up an apology. It looks like Soap360 has taken an interest in your game, but these quick accusations may have already ran the OP off.

I'm sure everyone understood what Falco meant. You could just change that word "criticisms" to "comments" inside your head and be done with it. Everyone mixes up words every once in a while.

Agreed; I'm sure that everyone understood what Falco meant because he obviously took offense. He may have misunderstood the OP's intentions, but I doubt he mixed his words up. That's an indecent excuse that doesn't fully approach the issue of miscommunication, and whether or not it's indeed the case here.

I had originally read the OPs post before anyone had responded, and I refrained from commenting because his posts reeked of bad trolling and I didn't feel like there was any need to respond to something that was so disdainfully either uninformed or intentionally malicious. But I changed my mind.

wearymemory wrote:Instead of sounding unapproachable, perhaps you could ask the OP to further explicate his means for such a claim. Stating the graphical capabilities of the Dreamcast may be irrelevant in your response. Are you sure that Soap360 wasn't simply referring to the graphics of your game (pixel art), rather than contesting the graphical abilities of the consoles?

His point was irrelevant to begin with. He's assuming that ES needs to be on par with other titles on the platform out of his own ignorance. And then implies that ES isn't capable of competing with other games on the platform, yet seems to support a release on Xbox Live Indie Games where the difference in quality of graphics that the system is capable of is massive compared to the difference between ES and a high-end PSP game. Its not even a legitimate concern, let alone something worth commenting on. Anyone with half a brain could discern that an indie game, yet alone a homebrew game, on the PSP isn't going to be on par with anything that professional developers with devkits and producers backing them are capable of doing (and this is the most important part) on any platform.

wearymemory wrote:How is the OP questioning the financial potential of your project? It sounds like Soap360 is inquiring about the goal of your project, and its affect on your future endeavors.

Soap360 wrote:And Jforce challenged you guys to who can sell the most copies, if Im not correct. How are you going to put up against an Indie game? Which is only clicks away from being bought, unlike a dreamcast or PSP game (excluding the psp go) which you have to go out and buy a copy in the store, which not only costs more then an Indie game, but it's much more of a stuggle. I dont get it.. is this like your Big project which you hope to reel in all the cash to open more oppurtunities? Im just subscribed to you guys a few days ago and I'd just like to know what's your plan?

The first part is obvious. This was neither necessary nor productive to conversation. And it has absolutely no viable merit on the affects of future endeavors. In fact, this is nothing more than a concern for a dick waving competition. I.e. financial potential. First, JForce and their sales are of no concern to the ES team's financial goals. Second, being able to compete financially with another game has no relevance to whether or not the ES team can sustain themselves financially with their products. It doesn't matter how well they fair up against another team of developers, their finances are completely relative to themselves and no one else. Selling better than another game doesn't necessarily mean they did better financially, and vice versa.

The second part of his comment is just pure ignorance on how the PSP and DC works. Both in how games can be distributed on those platforms, and how prices are determined.

wearymemory wrote:Criticisms? I've only seen questions or uneducated opinions. Perhaps you could point me to exactly where, in Soap360's two whole posts, the OP was criticizing, debating, or even insulting the Dreamcast, the ES team, or its users. It seems as though the OP is new to ES and its videos, and is therefore uneducated about the goals and specifications of this project, and has posed a few sincere questions to the team that have been putridly misinterpreted as offensive. Furthermore, the OP's second post on this forum even offered up an apology. It looks like Soap360 has taken an interest in your game, but these quick accusations may have already ran the OP off.

Soap360 wrote:umm, why release it on the Dreamcast? Who honestly still plays the Dreamcast...

Asking why they are releasing it on the Dreamcast, and asking why they are releasing it on the Dreamcast implying that no one will play it are different questions. One is a question imploring their logic. The other is prodding their logic through the use of a criticism implying that there are already inherit fallacies with their reasoning for doing so.

The OPs second post, although apologetic, offered up more concerns of the legitimacy of his posts. I refrained from posting before because I didn't want to respond to someone who may not have been trolling, but looked as though they were through their unintentional ignorance, but after reading his second post it only reaffirms what I had initially thought. He seems far too concerned with the business of ES than he is of the actual game. Asking specifics on how much money the ES team projects to make, and how much they need to make to continue is tactless. That kind of question is out of place when he has failed to show any other interest of ES outside of its financial potential.

---------------------------------

In any case, whether the OP was trying to be malicious or not is beside the point. IMO it wasn't even worth discussing just because of the content of his posts. It shouldn't be of any concern what financial state the ES team is in to anyone except people involved with ES. Gyrovorbis and Acre having to respond to such inquiries is unnecessary, and most likely unwanted, even if they are coming from someone who is fully supportive of their game.

DAYUM we didn't start the flame war... I honestly am lost in this conversation, too much unnecessary arguing going on here lol. Didn't he already say he was wrong and was misunderstanding things?

eatcomics wrote:DAYUM we didn't start the flame war... I honestly am lost in this conversation, too much unnecessary arguing going on here lol. Didn't he already say he was wrong and was misunderstanding things?

I agree, it's all bullshit

It's a matter of principle. I fully agree with krilik.

If you went to the website of a passionate group of musicians recording the music they want to, the way the want to do it, and started arrogantly asking why they don't do <insert here> would you expect them to not be aggravated?

If you went to a website of a passionate group of biologists performing some kind of genetic sequencing that is extremely interesting, yet has no commercial viability and asked them why they weren't doing <insert here> to make money, would you expect them to take it kindly?

If you went to the website of any electrical engineering hobbyist and asked him why he is even bothering assembling <insert technical feat here> when he has no means of mass manufacturing it for a profit, would you expect him to not be offended?

If you went to ANY homebrew site for any console that is REALLY dead (the Dreamcast is not commercially dead, I'm talking about NES, SNES, Genesis, Atari) and asked why the hell they are even bothering with a homebrew game when nobody plays the console anymore, would you expect them to sit back and take it kindly?

The truth is that inquiries like this (as ignorant as they may be) are belittling the passion and real motivation behind any sort of engineering. Everybody seems to think that they know how things should be done these days. I would not be so arrogant (or ignorant) to post such opinionated inquiries on a topic that I know so little about, and if I did, I would most certainly expect responses like this.

Ignorance in and of itself may be excusable (to an extent, it's called Google), but presenting your ignorance with a layer of opinionated arrogance (when you should KNOW that you don't know enough about the topic) is definitely grounds for pissing people off.

Ginto8 wrote:

eatcomics wrote:DAYUM we didn't start the flame war... I honestly am lost in this conversation, too much unnecessary arguing going on here lol. Didn't he already say he was wrong and was misunderstanding things?

I agree, it's all bullshit

I think this is a genuinely interesting philosophical debate... you guys are lame asses.

GyroVorbis wrote:The truth is that inquiries like this (as ignorant as they may be) are belittling the passion and real motivation behind any sort of engineering. Everybody seems to think that they know how things should be done these days. I would not be so arrogant (or ignorant) to post such opinionated inquiries on a topic that I know so little about, and if I did, I would most certainly expect responses like this.

Regardless of my position in the debate, I've got to agree wholeheartedly with this point. I think the true root of innovation that is so essential to engineering (as well as just about everything else, but especially engineering) comes from that kind of unbridled passion for something regardless of whatever known potential it has. After all, how the hell can someone know what potential an unknown and untested invention without a current market has. If Edison thought strictly about established markets while inventing the lightbulb, it wouldn't exist. There's no doubt that he had keen business sense and a knack for creating the market (he played a big role in establishing the electric grid after all, even though he would have preferred that it be DC rather than AC), but the lightbulb was something that: a) had no established market at the time and b) was untested - he went through hundreds of different "builds" to find one that worked well. He didn't go "hmm, there's no current company selling electrical things that produce light to the market right now so I better give up because there's no commercial potential."

GyroVorbis wrote:It's a matter of principle. I fully agree with krilik.

If you went to the website of a passionate group of musicians recording the music they want to, the way the want to do it, and started arrogantly asking why they don't do <insert here> would you expect them to not be aggravated?

If you went to a website of a passionate group of biologists performing some kind of genetic sequencing that is extremely interesting, yet has no commercial viability and asked them why they weren't doing <insert here> to make money, would you expect them to take it kindly?

If you went to the website of any electrical engineering hobbyist and asked him why he is even bothering assembling <insert technical feat here> when he has no means of mass manufacturing it for a profit, would you expect him to not be offended?

If you went to ANY homebrew site for any console that is REALLY dead (the Dreamcast is not commercially dead, I'm talking about NES, SNES, Genesis, Atari) and asked why the hell they are even bothering with a homebrew game when nobody plays the console anymore, would you expect them to sit back and take it kindly?

The truth is that inquiries like this (as ignorant as they may be) are belittling the passion and real motivation behind any sort of engineering. Everybody seems to think that they know how things should be done these days. I would not be so arrogant (or ignorant) to post such opinionated inquiries on a topic that I know so little about, and if I did, I would most certainly expect responses like this.

Ignorance in and of itself may be excusable (to an extent, it's called Google), but presenting your ignorance with a layer of opinionated arrogance (when you should KNOW that you don't know enough about the topic) is definitely grounds for pissing people off.

How does questioning a project belittle anything about it? Is this not what science/engineering is about. If you are so steadfastly assured of your direction either just tell the person, or say look, i appreciate your inquiries, but we want to keep certain things private for now.

One point soap made that was very clear was that the graphics don't match up to modern day PSP games, which if you are honest, it does not, so instead of saying, well this is our homage to classic RPG games like Chrono Trigger, FF##, Secret of Mana, etc... we want to stay with in that genre and feel(which BTW i think you are doing very well), you go off on a tangent and give him technical specs on how the DC is better than the PSP.

People get their work critiqued ALLLLL the time, getting up in their faces is not the appropriate response, regardless of the ignorance of the questions. If someone comments out of ignorance on your project, it should not be a time to become defensive, that is a golden opportunity to shed light on whats you are doing, and perhaps make him more interested in the project. Kinda like you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

wearymemory wrote:

pritam wrote:

wearymemory wrote:

avansc wrote:IM ON YOUR SIDE.

We're taking sides? I wasn't aware that Soap360 started a war in the entirety of his two whole posts.

Avansc is simply stating the he's not an evil enemy trying to ruin the party by sharing what he thinks.

My question was a rhetorical one, but I appreciate the response.

Good good.

wearymemory wrote:

pritam wrote:

wearymemory wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote:

Soap360 wrote:the graphics don't look like they can match up to modern day PSP games.

Orly? And what if I were to tell you that the Dreamcast's GPU has four times the VRAM that the PSP has. What if I were to tell you that it can do effects in hardware that the PSP can't even do in software? Bumpmapping? What is your basis for making such a bold claim?

Instead of sounding unapproachable, perhaps you could ask the OP to further explicate his means for such a claim. Stating the graphical capabilities of the Dreamcast may be irrelevant in your response. Are you sure that Soap360 wasn't simply referring to the graphics of your game (pixel art), rather than contesting the graphical abilities of the consoles?

This is a typical newbie comment, if it was misunderstood it should be corrected by Soap360 if he wishes to continue that discussion.

Who is incorrect: the writer, or the one who misunderstands him? Thanks for an excellent question! Anyway, I believe the fervor for an indictment should have subsided once Soap360 apologized for his/her seemingly pompous posts. If the OP meant to compare the graphical capabilities of the two consoles, then he/she should have explained their reasoning for doing so, but he/she did not, which gives credence to a misunderstanding. Furthermore, when addressing the consoles, the OP used the word "graphics," and not graphical capabilities or graphical/hardware specifications, which leads me to believe the obvious; that the OP was referring to the graphics. If so, then the OP makes a valid point, but ES wasn't made to compete with the graphics of modern day PSP games, it appeals to a genre of audience that takes pride in having class over crass.

In this case Falco has clearly responded by how he interpreted the comment and it's up to Soap360 to take it further if he wishes to.

wearymemory wrote:

pritam wrote:

wearymemory wrote:

Arce wrote:What I have the hardest time understanding is how you, or anybody, can question financial potential.

How is the OP questioning the financial potential of your project? It sounds like Soap360 is inquiring about the goal of your project, and its affect on your future endeavors.

This is a pointless topic at the moment.

Nonetheless, it was one of the OP's questions, and Arce had something to say about it; albeit belittling the inquirer in the process.

Regardless, I had something to say about it as well.

wearymemory wrote:

pritam wrote:

wearymemory wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote:

Soap360 wrote:Im just subscribed to you guys a few days ago and I'd just like to know what's your plan?

Sorry to sound like such a prick, but these particular criticisms always get to me.

Criticisms? I've only seen questions or uneducated opinions. Perhaps you could point me to exactly where, in Soap360's two whole posts, the OP was criticizing, debating, or even insulting the Dreamcast, the ES team, or its users. It seems as though the OP is new to ES and its videos, and is therefore uneducated about the goals and specifications of this project, and has posed a few sincere questions to the team that have been putridly misinterpreted as offensive. Furthermore, the OP's second post on this forum even offered up an apology. It looks like Soap360 has taken an interest in your game, but these quick accusations may have already ran the OP off.

I'm sure everyone understood what Falco meant. You could just change that word "criticisms" to "comments" inside your head and be done with it. Everyone mixes up words every once in a while.

Agreed; I'm sure that everyone understood what Falco meant because he obviously took offense. He may have misunderstood the OP's intentions, but I doubt he mixed his words up. That's an indecent excuse that doesn't fully approach the issue of miscommunication, and whether or not it's indeed the case here.

I'm stating mistakes happen, especially when one doesn't think clearly.

You know, I have to say this. Hopefully you'll take it not as a jab, but as some constructive criticism.

If THIS kind of thread is all it takes to irritate you, then I can absolutely guaran-frickin-tee you that you are NOT ready to go into the foray of trying to go to some of the higher traffic game development channels. They will tear you to shreds.
This is nothing that I'm not familiar with having fielded many of my works on said media. You come to expect criticism before a compliment. This is how I always field responses. You've simply got to learn to NOT wear your heart on your sleeve in this industry. To be blatantly honest, you haven't even scratched the surface. You've etched out a spot in a tiny niche market. If that's where you wish to stay, so be it. Time will come, however, when you need to leave the safety of the nest and venture out into a den of lions.

This is fine, however. This is just what makes for better software and better programmers. If you're naive enough to believe that you can't do more/better or unfocused enough to not TRY to do more/better, then you've just let yourself become complacent as a developer. Hey, I'll stick up for the little guy all day long, but lets get real here.

So lets take this professionally. Exercise some decorum and take each comment for what it is. The more you can learn to embrace criticism as consisting of elements of truth, the closer you are to creating a better product and making a better programmer out of yourself while simultaneously creating a professional image for you and your team. You don't have to justify anything to anyone. You're doing this for yourselves, remember?

GyroVorbis wrote:

Ginto8 wrote:

eatcomics wrote:DAYUM we didn't start the flame war... I honestly am lost in this conversation, too much unnecessary arguing going on here lol. Didn't he already say he was wrong and was misunderstanding things?

I agree, it's all bullshit

I think this is a genuinely interesting philosophical debate... you guys are lame asses.

I see endless walls of text.. I'm just gonna go watch some porn instead

Wow.

I don't quite know how I managed to miss the latest posts in this topic...O.o;

While reading, I saw some legitimate points I felt like commenting on, as well as blatant logic holes, misquotations, and even some nice places to stick "your momma!" However, those thoughts soon became lost in the clusterfuck that's enveloped this topic, and I'm not about to spend my perfectly good Tuesday evening trying to de-wrangle it. :P

A few, quick things:
@ avansc - I do understand what you were saying in the opening of topic, and want to extend a quick "there's no hot blood!" to ya. I'm just the type of person quick to defend my position, good or bad, and often-times it's hard to tell on the interwebs what is and is not supposed to be insulting. Whereas nothing in this topic from you felt even remotely insulting (quite the contrary) I still get the vibe that you think things are going to spontaneous combust between you and I, or the ES team. Just letting you know things like "I'm on your side!" aren't strictly necessary--it's hard to hate a person you've had drunken fun with man! =)

@ OP: My sincere apologies if this huge cluster-fuck of a topic has offended, or scared you in any way. That's the interesting thing about being so close to the developers--we've actually got the time to refute our "enemies." While there is absolutely nothing in your original post to insinuate negative connotations, the same could be said for positive and I do understand that gyrovorbis (AND myself) take pleasure in putting assholes in their place. You have my apologies for assuming the latter of you--though I will confess we all would have secretly enjoyed it if you were "TheNiceLordBJ" in disguise trying to flare hot blood. :P

@ Gyrovorbis: My cock is much bigger than yours. It can walk you right through the floor, with a feeling so pure, it's got you screaming back for more.

@ qpHalcy0n: (In response to 'don't wear your heart on your sleeve'): I digress. Whereas your entire post was completely legitimate in a corporate/professional situation, your forget this is our "at home" project being hosted on, talked about, and actually created from our personal website/forums. These forums literally have posts from when I was 10 and had no interest in game development what-so-ever. I also think you've forgotten that GyroVorbis and myself work at a development studio. Do you seriously think we would post a response like this to an investor? Do you think we whine when a package is deprecated, cry when the little kids testing our product tell us it's "not fun," or slit our wrists when we're told, "Okay guys, the contract didn't come through! You'll be working free for a while!"? The answer to all of the above is: Fuck no.

Though I do understand why you posted this, and want to thank you for it. The truth is that I was highlighting in the opening of this topic how we could potentially go "professional" with this when we decide to sell it, and we're already lining up our revenue base. So why not tell us like it is in the professional world?

Our goal with ES is NOT to emulate the corporate workflow. This is one of those projects that are being funded entirely by passion and dedication--it's literally impossible to apply certain software engineering methodologies to this project for that reason. We're asked all the time, "Why don't you go Agile/Waterfall/Matrix/<insert development pattern here>." The answer? Without financial backing, these are impossible. If you'd like to get into a debate as to why I think that, I'd love to another time in another topic. How's that relevant?

I simply want to point out the blatant truth: a project like this is created solely through human passion and interaction. When the amount of criticism we receive is directly proportional to the amount of work our team produces this week, we are most certainly going to take everything said seriously. If bitching somebody out online who "asks for it" motivates you to sit down and "show them who's boss" through code...Then go for it. You would not believe what a science it actually is trying to get a group of people to all find motivation to do something "productive," despite their love for that said thing. Things aren't the same when you cannot say, "Do this, or don't get paid."

@ qpHalcy0n #2:

So lets take this professionally. Exercise some decorum and take each comment for what it is. The more you can learn to embrace criticism as consisting of elements of truth, the closer you are to creating a better product and making a better programmer out of yourself while simultaneously creating a professional image for you and your team. You don't have to justify anything to anyone. You're doing this for yourselves, remember?

Now, I can argue with you all day...But I agree with you fully here. Wise words from a wise person. =)

@ general audience: Despite my big long talk about a project born of passion and separate from corporate blah blah blah...Here's one thing you need to set straight: The game isn't drawing revenue (yet), isn't funded (yet), and isn't "professional" by choice (yet). Again, all I wanted to do with my original post was emphasize the whole "yet" thing (as some of you seem to be under the impression that passion + (professionalism+revenue) = SEGFAULT.) Why can't we transform our project with X THOUSAND fans into something "more," take it professional, and do as we does when we're good and goddamned ready?

We can.

And we will.

You've completely misconstrued my post.

This isn't a "Code of conduct" for professional demeanor. It means to say that the harsh reality is that in terms of independent game development (which is itself a pretty small group), you've been cornering yourselves into an EXTREMELY small niche group of folks who would care less to be harshly critical over your project. Now, it also means to say that if you SEEK to transition into an arena where you seek to make money, sell, or otherwise distribute ES (which you've clearly said you intend to do) that you've got some exceedingly harsh realities that face you and will have to be dealt with. Now what this post has illustrated is that you're not ready to deal with them. This is okay. It's part of the process of transitioning into an area that you're uncomfortable; which quite honestly is where *I* like to be, myself. Because if I'm uncomfortable with where I'm at then it means I'm challenging my skill set. By confronting legitimate questions, concerns and issues from those who aren't out to destroy you or make you look bad, you only stand to help yourselves out. THIS is the audience that is probably going to stick with you 100%. The same can't be said for independent developers on the whole.

Thusly, the critique holds for ANY game developer who seeks to make a name for themselves. Which....you intend to do, right? It's easy to convince the audience who has been following you for years that the future is bright and rosy. It's 180 degrees when you start pitching your work out to the public. So then how DOESN'T this apply to you?? If you field every negative critique of your work as you've shown that you do here, then you're going to go home and cut your wrists. Now I can speak this from experience. I hold my practices and projects in high regard because I'm confident in me and my team's ability, however, you must understand that you MUST take the critiques as they are and be graceful about it! Do NOT take it to heart. It's apparent that you do, that's not up for debate. You do. Which is why I say that it's not good for YOU to wear your heart on your sleeve, it's nothing to do about "corporate workflow", I honestly have no idea where that came from.

I've also worked in corporate environments in some very tense times indeed (the code complete deadline is hell.....going gold is a walk in the park). I remember fielding and moderating chat rooms with the rest of the team and even for a AAA title, you'd be VERY surprised just how many scathing comments will come your way. I learned early on how to deal with this, and thank god. The indy group can be FAR more scathing than it was even 10 years ago (since it's substantially larger). I respect that you're working for a development studio and thats great, but I pray that you don't allow your ego to exceed you. It's quite easy to do, trust me, I know.

Here's what I hope you can take from this: Having shared a very similar experience as you guys, looking back on it from 10 years in the future offers some interesting insight. Age has come to give me some traits that I wish I possessed when I had the opportunity. Be realistic about who you are and what your project is and what it says about you. You're your own worst critic, listen to him. You'll HAVE to listen to criticism, it's just up to you as to whether or not you take it personally. People have very high expectations now when it comes to even indy games. The technology is just so advanced that it's exceedingly difficult to break the bubble and be taken seriously. Cross platform and dreamcast is immaculate, it's a great technological feat, perhaps...although I can't say with verity, it could be a walk in the park for all I know. Either way, I don't know a single person who owns one. I can count on one hand people I know whom own a PSP. If you were to count the folks that use it regularly you'd have even fewer.

So the honesty comes here. What are you?

Are you a group who is doing this for YOU and your CLOSEST followers? For experience only? For a blip on a resume (to which employers would say: "Whats that?? Who published it?")?

Or... Are you a group who seeks to break into something that can profit, garner some more internet attention and go more public?


Unfortunately, the truth is that with the project in it's current state you can't have both. They're simply too opposed. You know I hate to be the voice of reason and experience that tells you this, but as I've told some before: You really have to begin to consider your long term goals. You can sink a boatload of time into a project like this and literally have nothing to show for it except for personal satisfaction, which is fine! Or break yourselves out and really begin to challenge yourselves and see what you can do...diversify.

I think that's really what all the posters are trying to convey is simply that you quit defending your work as something that you ASPIRE it to be. It's just not that.
But rather, aspire YOURSELVES to be more than you ALLOW yourselves to be!

(Remember what I said about criticism?? Same applies to my advice...take it or leave it)

I actually took qpHalcy0n's words to heart. He brought very good points to the table, imho.

Also, I sent Soap a PM apologizing for any kind of offense that he may have taken. He said that everything is fine as far as he is concerned.