Elysian Shadows

pubby8 wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote:Am I the only one who finds endless irony here? He sets out to prove a point being that we are super arrogant and are undeserving of your respect/support. In doing so, he has started a 3 page thread of people basically rallying for ES and defending us while simultaneously hurting his own image.

We are often credited with way too much for our Youtube series. We never set out to be famous. We never thought we would become successful. We never thought anybody would know what ES was or even join our forums from those videos. Now that we DO have an established viewerbase/fanbase, of course we take advantage of that, but we didn't have the initial foresight to realize how big the "Adventures in Game Development" would become--and I would never be arrogant enough to say otherwise.

But guess what? I DO have the foresight to see how posts from trolls like you bashing our project actually does us good. For everybody else who understands our passions, our goals, and what we are setting out to do, watching trolls like you rip into a project that we quite honestly dedicate a gigantic amount of time to and are sincerely passionate about probably makes us look even better. Look at TheNiceLordJ, JForce games, Bearrick, and all of those other attention whores. Those are some of the biggest threads on these boards with some of our most passionate defenders. You are failing at your own game, son.

He sets out to prove a point being that we are super arrogant and are undeserving of your respect/support.

In doing so, he has started a 3 page thread of people basically rallying for ES and defending us while simultaneously hurting his own image

You have basically said that I have achieved my "goal"
I said your community was full of dipshit fanboys - I get 10 mispelled comments telling me to "fack off dood u sux"
I said you were arrogant assholes - I get told that I am too low to say such things and that I need to be put in place.
I said that you are blind to criticism - and you brush this off and deny it.

My goal was to show you your flaws, and this topic shows them more than any of the clown videos I've seen of you.

But that's not all of what you said. You told them how they're doing things wrong. You're telling them how to artificially construct their plan for success from neither a practiced and proven viewpoint or with an open mind to their intentions. You seem to take this assumption that they want to build the biggest, best game while optimizing community hype at the pinnacle right before the game is launched. Listen to what they have to say! They're giving you their answers to that. They aren't congruent with groups like JForce because that's NOT their style. They don't approach this like a fresh marketing grad looking to make quick a buck by focusing on optimizing short-term community/market strategy to the detriment of long-term respect and actual organic community-building (or, you know, just doing it because it's fun and a motivating thing to work towards while simultaneously being a great open-ended playground* for them to play around in for whatever future en devours they may have).

And you know what? Being a developer on the XNA App Hub for XNA Indie Games, I've seen a lot of developers respond in a very hostile manner to JForce. Their posts are often inflammatory, and when they tried to release Zombie Avatar Massage 2 it got completely shot down by other community members. Other developers didn't appreciate what they perceived as a lack of integrity and regard for the image of the service.

As for you, might I suggest that you ask questions you're genuinely willing to discuss (without pointing fingers when the answer isn't the one you want), engage in open dialogue, and relate your own personal experiences. In essence, you've got to be vulnerable and open if you expect others to do the same (though this also means that a couple of specific posters, not pointing any fingers, need to stop responding with such knee-jerk name-calling reactions). Respect and openness to feedback need to be mutual - not a one way street.

We're all learning. That goes for me. That goes for you. And we all need to give respect before we can expect it in return. I have had disagreements in the past on these boards, but they were few and far between. More so, I give credit to the members of these boards for giving some sense of congruence to what can be an incredibly challenging route as a game programmer. There are so many pathways to go down and things to focus on. Without communities like this one, it can all be too much. Above all, I strive to continue growing and finding where I most want to direct my talents and energies. It's not like all the answers are here... no, in many cases only I can find those answers, but places like this help to create environments where those ideas can be explored and some questions can be answered.


*Just to emphasize this point - innovation isn't born out of hard-nosed structure. It's born out of trial and error, sandboxes, getting your hands dirty, cleaning up messes and trying again, throwing away the book then picking it back up again, etc. There's a reason that a vast majority of nobel laureates engage in one form or another of creative pursuit. The key point is that there is certainly not one right answer. I really value the time I've spent playing with things like Lego as a kid where I constructed worlds out of whatever was flowing through my mind - and these worlds persisted both inside my head and in the blocks. I doubt I was ever the most efficient Lego builder, but it was never about efficiency for me back then and I'm glad of that.

pubby8 wrote: Mistake 1: forming teams prematurely
If you are going to design an "indie game," please don't get a team together until you've gotten the majority of the programming done! Artists are great to have, but they always leave shortly after, as they either lose interest

Art can take a long time. As long as you have figured out the style you want and or figured out some areas to be made why not add an artist to the team?

pubby8 wrote: Mistake 2: promoting early
A community is a great thing to have - it gives you people to play your game, and also support. The problem is that communities should be formed only after the game is nearly complete! Why?- well if you have a community, you start to make false promises to them. Game devs will spend hours discussing their game to community, in lieu of actually making it. Also, the bigger the community, the harder you will fall if your game dies!

Does it matter if he promotes via youtube? It isn't like hes spamming people's forums being like YO MY UNFINISHED GAME IS TIGHT YO or anything.
This community doesn't just revolve around the game. I'm pretty sure gyro will finish the game eventually. Even if he is about to die he'll invent a robot to put his brain into to continue programming.

pubby8 wrote: Mistake 3: being arrogant
Telling yourself you are a god can do great things to your ego, but it only hurts your performance. It is very stupid to scream at anyone who criticizes what you have done - many times it will turn out that they are right, and you only discover this far down the road AFTER you make the mistake (*cough* engine rewrite *cough*).
I know gyrovorbis is a decent programmer, but he is not "godly" enough to be so arrogant! He will learn much faster and write better code if he becomes more humble and realizes that he is not god's gift to computers.

You take gyro too seriously.

pubby8 wrote: Because undoubtedly some of you are going to say:
"You don't have the right to say this, you jerk"
-Yes I do. I've made all of these mistakes, many times. Actually, I still make them - the difference is that I know that I am making them!

People make mistakes. Sometimes the same mistake over and over. Ever stubbed your foot more than once on the corner of a bed?

pubby8 wrote: "You still don't have the right to say this - what have you done, dipshit?"
-I've worked on games too. I've know programming too. I know development hell too. I am not "the master," and I have many flaws - I'm only posting this here as honest advice.

Can i see what you have made then?

pubby8 wrote: -I'm not telling you these things because I think I'm superior - I don't! This is not PUBBY8 vs GYROVORBIS cage match! (actually I offered to have one on IRC due to fanboys' suggestions, but gyrovorbis was a baby and wouldn't comply)

I'll abduct Gyro and we can set up a steel cage match with some sockem boppers.

pubby8 wrote: "You have nothing to back up your shitty points, you are spewing garbage!"
-The game's been in developement forever and hasn't gotten all that far. I am sure even Gyrovorbis admits he has made mistakes along the way.

Games can take forever. See DUKE NUKEM FOREVER.

pubby8 wrote: "You can't criticize anything since it isn't finished yet"
-So then stop posting it all over youtube and this forum! I would love to criticize the source - but it's not availible to me!
BUT, I do have access to like 200 lines from http://elysianshadows.com/project/album ... album?id=4
I am going to say that it is nothing special, and there are many ways to improve it.

He's not posting ALL OVER JEWTUBE. Its not as fucking horrible as those whores that beg for subscriptions AND FIVE STARZZZ ME.I'm sorry Gyro at least tries to put decent content on youtube. Access to 200 lines from 2 years ago. Good show. Why would anyone give their game engine's unfinished source code out? Its like giving your baby to a stranger.If you wanna criticize something criticize the game and its features. How often does a user see the code?

@EccentricDuck:
I actually agree with most of what you have said. Everybody learns from their mistakes, and doing anything requires trial and error. Still, their current plans for success have not brought them fantastic success - they may have tried new engines, new people, new designs, but they still haven't figured out their winning plan, and I don't think they will until they address some of their fundamental mistakes.

@jyscal1:
I explained most of what you are talking about in later posts, so I'm not going to restate it all.
I do take gyro too seriously, and I know he's taking me too seriously also.
I'd post more stuff I've made, but I haven't got much. The source to that 3d terrain thing is on second page, and I'll get around to posting some more.

People wouldn't be upset about duke nukem forever if 3d realms didn't advertise it prematurely. As I've said, the problem with sharing your creation before it's finished is biggest problem to creator - it wastes their time and is not worth the efforts.

I will gladly test a demo if one is available.

pubby8 wrote:@EccentricDuck:
I actually agree with most of what you have said. Everybody learns from their mistakes, and doing anything requires trial and error. Still, their current plans for success have not brought them fantastic success - they may have tried new engines, new people, new designs, but they still haven't figured out their winning plan, and I don't think they will until they address some of their fundamental mistakes.

Everything else aside, the point is there is no winning plan. It's not a linear race to some end goal. There is no deadline on success... and no single definition of success. Personally, I think they've been very successful. Falco, for instance, has made his way through an intense engineering program while championing several major projects while Marcel seems to be entering into university with a massive headstart. Both have a ton of opportunity available for them. Also, the community and videos were never expected to be as big a hit as they were, yet here they are.

I went through a period of time no so long ago where I was obsessed with capitalizing on and seizing every opportunity that I came across. I came to realize however that I spent so much time and energy looking at other opportunities that my pattern of thinking became dependent upon that. Rather than setting myself up to actually realistically seize opportunity, I was positioning myself to jump on some miracle bandwagon. I no longer look so much for opportunity to show up and be waiting for me, and you know what, with a positive mindset and more inward focus to my own improvement I'm better able to recognize and act on those opportunities that do present themselves. There is no ideal plan, but there is always room for me to grow. The funny thing is that I feel happier when I focus on my own genuine priorities (and not those that are deemed important to others).

Thanks for your response. I think you helped bring that back to the surface for me today.

pubby8 wrote: @jyscal1:
I explained most of what you are talking about in later posts, so I'm not going to restate it all.
I do take gyro too seriously, and I know he's taking me too seriously also.
I'd post more stuff I've made, but I haven't got much. The source to that 3d terrain thing is on second page, and I'll get around to posting some more.

People wouldn't be upset about duke nukem forever if 3d realms didn't advertise it prematurely. As I've said, the problem with sharing your creation before it's finished is biggest problem to creator - it wastes their time and is not worth the efforts.

I will gladly test a demo if one is available.

screw it ill just assume you made valid points FOR NOW(ill read that wall of text later).

You mean the thing on the first page in the console? Your youtube is has some goodies :D.

I don't really think anyone is that upset (other than someone who preordered LOL). That is just my personal opinion though there could be someone out there thats like fuck duke nukem forever. If you think about it though after so many years if you don't know about duke nukem forever you live in a hole. So there could probably be a lot of sales. I mean as soon as it is out do you think anyone is going to be "GOD IT TOOK FOREVER IM NOT GONNA BUY IT"? I see what you are trying to get at though.

pubby, I refuse to listen to you unless you can prove some sort of credibility.

I could make a report tomorrow and say that 99% of kids die when surfing the internet. I obviously have no credibility, so I'll be widely untrusted. Same applies here.

Ironically, your topic advertises game design, however you don't talk about game design at all. You provide no definition of game design either, so you're making a pointless argument.

If you want to make any sort of impact, you don't need to post a biased topic that is misleading.

Good day.

Also, k1net1k wins :3 <3

pubby8 wrote:I said your community was full of dipshit fanboys - I get 10 mispelled comments telling me to "fack off dood u sux"

Most of the responses were either reasonable or questioning your credibility. I'd like to see these "fack off dood u sux" posts.

pubby8 wrote:I said you were arrogant assholes - I get told that I am too low to say such things and that I need to be put in place.

This is a meritocracy. If you earn our respect, either through reasonable discussion and apparent experience, or through your work, we will give it to you.

pubby8 wrote:I said that you are blind to criticism - and you brush this off and deny it.

no, he said that you have not gained enough respect for your criticism to matter. Avansc and qphalcy0n, among others, are highly respected member of this community that criticize Falco all the time, and he usually listens.

pubby8 wrote:My goal was to show you your flaws, and this topic shows them more than any of the clown videos I've seen of you.

All I've seen is how full of shit you are

Falco is arrogant, so is the rest of the team, so am I, and if your an actual developer then you are too.

We can't exist as developers without a little bit of arrogance, without it, we'd just give up and go play with Gamemaker or some excuse for a game creation system. Arrogance is not a negative trait in developers, it's a vital trait - you cannot attempt a decent sized game project and retain a 100% grasp on reality. But the arrogance is not really our fault, it's born from explaining and defending our ideas to little pipsqueeks who can't even afford their own opinions. Nobody will buy/play/enjoy that, you can't make a game that size, you won't get anywhere, that's a horrible idea... and we have negative comments as well. How else are developers expected to deal with negativity like that without a bit of arrogance?

Should we listen to some chump, just because they are a potential customer?, or that they might just have a point? - myself, I don't, but then I tend not to discuss game development with tosspots these days. I pay attention to people who have actually played the game I'm writing, or are a fan of similar games, or have a an invested interest in it's development. There is very little to be gained in offering or listening to coding advice - developers don't want to hear it. I actually avoid sharing code with people, because there's always something that could be handled better. In the grand scheme of your average game project, a 'select' anomaly is irrelevant - it's usually tough to pick up on relevant points in threads like this, because every programmer has their own techniques that they swear by.

Arrogance in a game developer is really more like a creative force - a desire to proove people wrong, to shut people up, and to push forward with an idea that nobody else likes, or understands. Not many people will admit to being arrogant, but there's just no other word for that productive developer attitude - it's arrogance about your idea and your ability to achieve it, it's not about personal ego's - most of us just want a little recognition for our long nights.

People should accept it, if your gonna tackle a game like ES with a small team, then your gonna need some balls or you just will not get anywhere. We can't let reality set in, because that will most likely kill the project. If Notch was a realist, he wouldn't be a millionaire with his own company right now. If Gyro didn't know in their hearts that ES would be a success, then they wouldn't work on it, arrogance will ensure ES's completion... arrogance and decent coffee go a long way.

I totally agree with this guys actually.

Jesus Gyro you think you can stand up to this game maker kid?
Just because you enjoy optimised you're physics with inline assembly?
Just because you've been working on it for 4 years and have far more experience than him?

This dude made a sprite float around the screen!
</sarcasm>

Wow, I could go on for days in this thread.

pubby8, you have so many false perceptions of GyroVorbis, Elysian Shadows, and The Chaos Rift, I don't even know where to begin. The rest of the community has already done a decent job of ripping your arguments to shreds, so that saves me quite a bit of work.

In general, you seem to take this bizarre position of a disgruntled customer who focuses only on the Elysian Shadows game/engine and its missing release date. Sure, I'm willing to bet that many of the fan followers are interested in the game that might come out someday, but most of us are game developers who are very interested in the actual process, not the product. Falco has probably restarted the engine four times now. I love that because I find myself going through the same thing. I learn some new way of coding and see huge shockwaves of improvement in the rest of my code.

In regard to your original arguments, you say they formed a team prematurely? Premature to what, exactly? And he is promoting too early? Too early for what? Again, you act like a betrayed customer and that GyroVorbis is some irresponsible corporate tycoon who falsely advertised something.

pubby8, the way you gain respect around here is to show off your talent. I like having discussions here with everyone because almost everyone has SOMETHING to demonstrate real proficiency. We swap code samples, share binaries of example programs, discuss OpenGL, work out math/theory, etc. All you've done thus far is make false assumptions about everything and tell everyone how wrong they are. Where are your credentials? What have you done? The point Falco has been trying to make all along is clearly illustrated here: WHY SHOULD ANYONE LISTEN TO A SINGLE WORD YOU SAY? And sorry, your response is invalid. ("It's just my opinion! If you don't like it, ignore it!") Why share your opinion if you're not going to take any steps to defend it and try to get others to see your point of view?

k1net1k wrote:

this

In reference to the Hello World thread:

pubby8 wrote:I joined here because you guys piss me off - and so I can get into pointless arguments with assholes.

LOL! I approve of the new rank!

GyroVorbis wrote:LOL! I approve of the new rank!

ROFL, that is classic!