Elysian Shadows

Heres my 2 cents. The hard ware is pretty much the same (as in same quality) so you really cant say that any one of them is any better. I honestly think It comes down to the developers and the language and API. PS3 uses C++ (Im assuming), OpenGL ES and 360 uses C# and XNA, a modified DirectX 10. I think it really comes down to how you program and how well you do it. Its like plain ol' OpenGL VS DirectX, just modified versions of those APIs. Since C# and C++ are different, I think some of the perfomance gets lost when porting from PS3 to 360 and Vice Versa... Its like Alchemy, Lead To Gold, actually, more like Apples To Oranges, they are both Fruits, Taste good, and is about the same size, but they are different taste, texture and color....



The bottom Line: The concole is only good as the API and the Developers that develope the games...

davidthefat wrote: 360 uses C# and XNA

Actually almost(?) all commercial 360 games use C++ and DirectX. C#/XNA is only for the community games.

davidthefat wrote:Heres my 2 cents. The hard ware is pretty much the same (as in same quality) so you really cant say that any one of them is any better. I honestly think It comes down to the developers and the language and API. PS3 uses C++ (Im assuming), OpenGL ES and 360 uses C# and XNA, a modified DirectX 10. I think it really comes down to how you program and how well you do it. Its like plain ol' OpenGL VS DirectX, just modified versions of those APIs. Since C# and C++ are different, I think some of the perfomance gets lost when porting from PS3 to 360 and Vice Versa... Its like Alchemy, Lead To Gold, actually, more like Apples To Oranges, they are both Fruits, Taste good, and is about the same size, but they are different taste, texture and color....



The bottom Line: The concole is only good as the API and the Developers that develope the games...

I think you are greatly confusing XNA development with game development in general. XNA uses C# but that doesn't mean that you can't write a game in c++ that could potentially run on the 360. Do you think games like Gears of War and Halo 3 were written in C#? Whether you are developing for PS3, Xbox 360, Atari 2600, or Intellivision, the fact remains the same: The game will only be as good as the development team makes it. You did make one valid point though...

davidthefat wrote: C# and C++ are different

Also

davidthefat wrote: XNA, a modified DirectX 10

No

hurstshifter wrote:

davidthefat wrote:Heres my 2 cents. The hard ware is pretty much the same (as in same quality) so you really cant say that any one of them is any better. I honestly think It comes down to the developers and the language and API. PS3 uses C++ (Im assuming), OpenGL ES and 360 uses C# and XNA, a modified DirectX 10. I think it really comes down to how you program and how well you do it. Its like plain ol' OpenGL VS DirectX, just modified versions of those APIs. Since C# and C++ are different, I think some of the perfomance gets lost when porting from PS3 to 360 and Vice Versa... Its like Alchemy, Lead To Gold, actually, more like Apples To Oranges, they are both Fruits, Taste good, and is about the same size, but they are different taste, texture and color....



The bottom Line: The concole is only good as the API and the Developers that develope the games...

I think you are greatly confusing XNA development with game development in general. XNA uses C# but that doesn't mean that you can't write a game in c++ that could potentially run on the 360. Do you think games like Gears of War and Halo 3 were written in C#? Whether you are developing for PS3, Xbox 360, Atari 2600, or Intellivision, the fact remains the same: The game will only be as good as the development team makes it. You did make one valid point though...

davidthefat wrote: C# and C++ are different

Also

davidthefat wrote: XNA, a modified DirectX 10

No

IDK if Gears of war was in C# or not, but XNA is C# the community is XNA Express and Real Devs get the full XNA

davidthefat wrote:Heres my 2 cents. The hard ware is pretty much the same (as in same quality) so you really cant say that any one of them is any better. I honestly think It comes down to the developers and the language and API. PS3 uses C++ (Im assuming), OpenGL ES and 360 uses C# and XNA, a modified DirectX 10. I think it really comes down to how you program and how well you do it. Its like plain ol' OpenGL VS DirectX, just modified versions of those APIs. Since C# and C++ are different, I think some of the perfomance gets lost when porting from PS3 to 360 and Vice Versa... Its like Alchemy, Lead To Gold, actually, more like Apples To Oranges, they are both Fruits, Taste good, and is about the same size, but they are different taste, texture and color....



The bottom Line: The concole is only good as the API and the Developers that develope the games...

I think PS3 does indeed rely on C/++ and Assembly. Havn't heard of a Java game on the PS3. The only thing I'm not too fond of on the 360 is the fact you have to pay to play games online. That was a major turn off. Even though it's only, what, $50 a year, the cost of it would really add up after 3 years, IF your 360 lasts that long. Even though I've heard Microsoft has fixed all the RROD's.

EDIT: Also, I cant really give my opinion on which I think is better. I dont have a 360, and the only game I've played on one is Quake 4. So the 360 might be vastly superior. Don't know. I do have a ps3 though, and I am quite happy with my purchase.

davidthefat wrote: IDK if Gears of war was in C# or not, but XNA is C# the community is XNA Express and Real Devs get the full XNA

I feel that you misread everything I wrote. I know perfectly well that XNA uses C#. I am just saying that you are comparing limitations of PS3 vs. Xbox 360 on completely incorrect facts. C# w/ XNA is not the only process of developing an Xbox 360 game.

davidthefat wrote:

hurstshifter wrote:

davidthefat wrote:Heres my 2 cents. The hard ware is pretty much the same (as in same quality) so you really cant say that any one of them is any better. I honestly think It comes down to the developers and the language and API. PS3 uses C++ (Im assuming), OpenGL ES and 360 uses C# and XNA, a modified DirectX 10. I think it really comes down to how you program and how well you do it. Its like plain ol' OpenGL VS DirectX, just modified versions of those APIs. Since C# and C++ are different, I think some of the perfomance gets lost when porting from PS3 to 360 and Vice Versa... Its like Alchemy, Lead To Gold, actually, more like Apples To Oranges, they are both Fruits, Taste good, and is about the same size, but they are different taste, texture and color....



The bottom Line: The concole is only good as the API and the Developers that develope the games...

I think you are greatly confusing XNA development with game development in general. XNA uses C# but that doesn't mean that you can't write a game in c++ that could potentially run on the 360. Do you think games like Gears of War and Halo 3 were written in C#? Whether you are developing for PS3, Xbox 360, Atari 2600, or Intellivision, the fact remains the same: The game will only be as good as the development team makes it. You did make one valid point though...

davidthefat wrote: C# and C++ are different

Also

davidthefat wrote: XNA, a modified DirectX 10

No

IDK if Gears of war was in C# or not, but XNA is C# the community is XNA Express and Real Devs get the full XNA

So, what are real developers? (commercial developers, professional developers, indie team developers), we are here all real developers, we exist in this physical world don't we?


"Real Developers" who want to develop for the any digital system will usually go for a language, together with a library/COM(or they make their own) that has the tools and features they need for their game.
C++ and it's libraries let you control the game in a much more detailed way then XNA will let you, you might not deal with it in indie games, but in commercial games, where everything needs to run smoothly and look awesome with a huge number of triangles displayed on the screen, and the CPU and GPU working their ass off, it is important, and that's one of the reasons most commercial devs use C++.

Maybe there is no performance lose, just not any performance gain because you can't/are limited to optimize the performance with C#'s XNA

Netwatcher wrote:

davidthefat wrote:

hurstshifter wrote:

davidthefat wrote:Heres my 2 cents. The hard ware is pretty much the same (as in same quality) so you really cant say that any one of them is any better. I honestly think It comes down to the developers and the language and API. PS3 uses C++ (Im assuming), OpenGL ES and 360 uses C# and XNA, a modified DirectX 10. I think it really comes down to how you program and how well you do it. Its like plain ol' OpenGL VS DirectX, just modified versions of those APIs. Since C# and C++ are different, I think some of the perfomance gets lost when porting from PS3 to 360 and Vice Versa... Its like Alchemy, Lead To Gold, actually, more like Apples To Oranges, they are both Fruits, Taste good, and is about the same size, but they are different taste, texture and color....



The bottom Line: The concole is only good as the API and the Developers that develope the games...

I think you are greatly confusing XNA development with game development in general. XNA uses C# but that doesn't mean that you can't write a game in c++ that could potentially run on the 360. Do you think games like Gears of War and Halo 3 were written in C#? Whether you are developing for PS3, Xbox 360, Atari 2600, or Intellivision, the fact remains the same: The game will only be as good as the development team makes it. You did make one valid point though...

davidthefat wrote: C# and C++ are different

Also

davidthefat wrote: XNA, a modified DirectX 10

No

IDK if Gears of war was in C# or not, but XNA is C# the community is XNA Express and Real Devs get the full XNA

So, what are real developers? (commercial developers, professional developers, indie team developers), we are here all real developers, we exist in this physical world don't we?


"Real Developers" who want to develop for the any digital system will usually go for a language, together with a library/COM(or they make their own) that has the tools and features they need for their game.
C++ and it's libraries let you control the game in a much more detailed way then XNA will let you, you might not deal with it in indie games, but in commercial games, where everything needs to run smoothly and look awesome with a huge number of triangles displayed on the screen, and the CPU and GPU working their ass off, it is important, and that's one of the reasons most commercial devs use C++.

Maybe there is no performance lose, just not any performance gain because you can't/are limited to optimize the performance with C#'s XNA

Bad wording choice, ok Professional Devs

JaxDragon wrote:

davidthefat wrote:Heres my 2 cents. The hard ware is pretty much the same (as in same quality) so you really cant say that any one of them is any better. I honestly think It comes down to the developers and the language and API. PS3 uses C++ (Im assuming), OpenGL ES and 360 uses C# and XNA, a modified DirectX 10. I think it really comes down to how you program and how well you do it. Its like plain ol' OpenGL VS DirectX, just modified versions of those APIs. Since C# and C++ are different, I think some of the perfomance gets lost when porting from PS3 to 360 and Vice Versa... Its like Alchemy, Lead To Gold, actually, more like Apples To Oranges, they are both Fruits, Taste good, and is about the same size, but they are different taste, texture and color....



The bottom Line: The concole is only good as the API and the Developers that develope the games...

I think PS3 does indeed rely on C/++ and Assembly. Havn't heard of a Java game on the PS3. The only thing I'm not too fond of on the 360 is the fact you have to pay to play games online. That was a major turn off. Even though it's only, what, $50 a year, the cost of it would really add up after 3 years, IF your 360 lasts that long. Even though I've heard Microsoft has fixed all the RROD's.

EDIT: Also, I cant really give my opinion on which I think is better. I dont have a 360, and the only game I've played on one is Quake 4. So the 360 might be vastly superior. Don't know. I do have a ps3 though, and I am quite happy with my purchase.

Since you pointed out XBL and that you have to pay for it... Devs want money, so they rather go that extra mile for xbox games to squeeze every penny from you... and 360 has a bigger audience .. thats just a big money maker.

One little picky point, I would just like to point out that XNA came out about 2 years AFTER the release of the Xbox360, so logically development teams would have to of used other methods, such as C++ with directX and the xbox360's original API.

Like I said that's picky, but the reality is, no matter how powerful you think XNA might be, certain projects couldn't possibly cater for the broad spectrum of games that are made today, the fact of the matter is, development studios write their tools in C++, and their own components which are optimised for their platform, the type of low-level control required for newer advanced features would likely be impossible in some situations.

XNA seems like a good API to start off with, it allows you to develop things quickly, which can only be good, but surely it cannot be used to squeeze out masses of performance from the CPU's and GPU's like a custom-made, in-house package could.

As for the PS3, I have no knowledge of how games are developed for the PS3, I do distinctly remember seeing a special PS1 you could buy back in the day with enchanced debug capabilities, but I only saw pictures here and there, I couldn't even explain it's full purpose.

I thought for a moment that someone had resurrected the previous "PS3 VS XBOX 360" thread, and was about to distribute some internet punches. I'm glad this sounds different than it is. And since I have real insight here, unlike other responses of just trying to be an arrogant dick, I shall raise the proverbial curtain here.

davidthefat wrote:1)The hard ware is pretty much the same (as in same quality) so you really cant say that any one of them is any better.

2)360 uses C# and XNA

3)The bottom Line: The concole is only good as the API and the Developers that develope the games...

1) The PS3 boasts better specs for its hardware - and it's true. The potential for graphics processing, etc. is higher. And if that was my prime concern, I wouldn't have my 360.

2) Yes, for Community Games, XNA is used on retail kits, as was pointed out. I'm sure there are a few commercial developers who use XNA, the same way that there are some companies that primarily make games for the iPhone, but the vast majority of commercial developers use C++, and have dev kits.

3) Exactly. And what this in fact comes down to is what console is the most appealing for developers to make games on. Sony has publicly stated that their console is intentionally difficult to develop games for. This is why I have no sympathy for fanboys who complain about a 360-exclusive.

davidthefat wrote:IDK if Gears of war was in C# or not, but XNA is C# the community is XNA Express and Real Devs get the full XNA

Sorry, but where are you getting this information from? It would not benefit anyone to purposely limit what indie developers can do with XNA, while giving pro devs special privileges. Using XNA has its limits, end of story. Using C++ with a dev kit has significantly less limits, but is more costly, hence commercial developers only going in that direction. Keep in mind, Microsoft makes money from Community Games - they obviously want them to be as good as they can be.

I don't work directly with PS3 development, but it appears to be similar (well, not XNA, obviously).

aamesxdavid wrote:

davidthefat wrote:IDK if Gears of war was in C# or not, but XNA is C# the community is XNA Express and Real Devs get the full XNA

Sorry, but where are you getting this information from? It would not benefit anyone to purposely limit what indie developers can do with XNA, while giving pro devs special privileges. Using XNA has its limits, end of story. Using C++ with a dev kit has significantly less limits, but is more costly, hence commercial developers only going in that direction. Keep in mind, Microsoft makes money from Community Games - they obviously want them to be as good as they can be.

I don't work directly with PS3 development, but it appears to be similar (well, not XNA, obviously).

Ok my mistake, XDK is the machine pros use and IDK about the language

Ah, yes I see the confusion of acronyms there: XDK just stands for Xbox Development Kit. Easily confused with XNA, and then they have NXE for their dashboard update.. they just love three-letter acronyms. It's a dev kit like any other, Sony just doesn't seem as up on the snappy names.

As for language, well, the standard in all game development at the moment is C++, but it's certainly not a requirement. It's worth noting that it's really just a PC (as is every console), and language is more dependent on the engine you're using.

I like how the posts in the console wars are soooo much longer than the programming ones! Also, they are very heated... it's kinda scary sometimes!

I don't own a ps3 so I don't think I'm qualified to compare the 2

aamesxdavid wrote:Ah, yes I see the confusion of acronyms there: XDK just stands for Xbox Development Kit. Easily confused with XNA, and then they have NXE for their dashboard update.. they just love three-letter acronyms. It's a dev kit like any other, Sony just doesn't seem as up on the snappy names.

Microsoft and snappy names? What like "low cost small notebook pc"? On the topic at hand a games console is only as good as it's games considering it's primary purpose is to entertain through the games.....so it's not really a fight versus the two consoles and the hardware but between the software (games that is) of the two systems. In the end as long as you are being entertained why should you care about the hardware?

That's just my personal opinion feel free to tear it to shreds.