Elysian Shadows

Ok, I have seen some team hating posts on here alot (mostly by Gyrovorbis) but i was wondering why people hate working in teams.
I'll admit I'm not fond of working in large teams but if it's a large project with a small team (for homework for instance (let say a science project),
1 person to Get the materials (tool scripter)
1 to build the project (main programmer)
1 to do the writing documenting (documentor)
1 as the "manager" kinda does the fill in work here and there (designer/suprevisro)
1 as the board the designer/artist (artist)
1 or 2 as presenters (that give demonstrations) (beta testers and advertister)



please correct me if i'm wrong on the whole comparison thing. But if you look at it doesn't it make sense to work in a team (if you got the RIGHT TEAM) ????

No offense, but the fact that you think working with a team is as easy as a list shows your inexperience. Try doing something mentally taxing for every team member, while some of you feel extremely passionate about it, some of you decide to blow the rest of the team off for your girlfriends, some of you want to run things a certain way, some of you have vision, and some of you are along for the ride.

Sure, that may work for your cute little "science project" that takes a few weeks max, but it sure as hell isn't going to work for an ambitious game development endeavor. You will learn with experience.

Small teams can be beneficial some times, but they are also stressful, because some team members wont feel like working, or will not actually work for some other reason. Also, some team members will have a different idea of how they want the project to turn out which can cause issues within the team. Also, comparing programming to a science project is not proving a point at all. A science project will take a few weeks, while developing a piece of software will take months, or years (depending on what it is). Kthx.

edit: just read GyroVorbis' post, i didnt see it :-/

Your listing is extremely idealistic and humans don't behave like that.

Ok,I know i'm as you put it "enexperienced" but that's why i put the "right team"
people who have the same goals. and maybe will compromise but isn't that why you posted (Gyrovorbis) a video on game development and actually put in there you have to have the right team members (and you looked at peter and told him some stuff). So why is it that you hate it so much but still partake in it?


The reason i used the science project is i was going of the top of my head for the jobs. But i mean really if you get a decent team that worked and was compromisable (bends to what needs to be done) wouldn't it be worth the team?


at bakkon: our school the groupps in in actually do oppreate that way when we do stuff. One person bring the materials and the others do the work and writing. then one person does the presentation to the teacher and class of what happend/what is but it may just be we're a small school and all get along/know eacher other really well

thbp wrote:Ok,I know i'm as you put it "enexperienced" but that's why i put the "right team"
people who have the same goals. and maybe will compromise but isn't that why you posted (Gyrovorbis) a video on game development and actually put in there you have to have the right team members (and you looked at peter and told him some stuff). So why is it that you hate it so much but still partake in it?


The reason i used the science project is i was going of the top of my head for the jobs. But i mean really if you get a decent team that worked and was compromisable (bends to what needs to be done) wouldn't it be worth the team?


at bakkon: our school the groupps in in actually do oppreate that way when we do stuff. One person bring the materials and the others do the work and writing. then one person does the presentation to the teacher and class of what happend/what is but it may just be we're a small school and all get along/know eacher other really well

Finding people that all have the same goals, and exhibit the set of skills needed, is nearly impossible.

Adding on to what GyroVorbis said, in a school project, a few of the people will be motivated solely by the fact that it is for school. There may be people that are absolutely passionate about it.

The problem is, not all people will always have the same level of determination. When someone feels they are working their ass off, and others are just screwing around, tensions grow, and people get irritated. As this tension manifests, shit happens...

Sure you may all be happy-go lucky individuals 'ready' to make a game, but as time goes on, and the project expands, it's not going to be all nice and pretty.

It's human nature, people are going to get pissed, and problems will arise.

I personally think it's impossible to find the 'right group', because everyone is different, and everyone has different goals, someone's goals will have to take a back seat at some point. If your goals for a project has to take a backseat, I believe you'll be much less motivated.

But that's all just my opinion.

If you want to still attempt a group project, go ahead, find out for yourself what the experience is like.

oh, i'm not doing a "group" project other than i'm going to have people test out the programs i make to see if they can find flaws (um if i'm right) beta testers. I mean maybe as time goes on and i go to college (3 years from now) i might find another programmer/scripter to help but till then i'ts kind of a one man crew

thbp wrote:Ok,I know i'm as you put it "enexperienced" but that's why i put the "right team"
people who have the same goals. and maybe will compromise but isn't that why you posted (Gyrovorbis) a video on game development and actually put in there you have to have the right team members (and you looked at peter and told him some stuff). So why is it that you hate it so much but still partake in it?

Exactly.

Finding the right team is insanely hard. Working with the Elysian Shadows team (now) is a great joy. It was originally my brother and my best friend--the two people who you would think would be ideal devving companions. Marcel and I don't even speak to each other anymore, and Peter barely does anything these days (read: ESRev2 might be the last time you see him as an active team member). The best team is my girlfriend and a bunch of people that I have only met online (never in real life) scattered throughout the world that I only had the privilege of meeting because of our Youtube popularity.

But of course you aren't going to believe us. It's like a band, right? Get a bunch of your programming/band homies together, start an indie project/band, and have the time of your life, right? The only way to learn is to make that mistake.

GyroVorbis wrote:

thbp wrote:Ok,I know i'm as you put it "enexperienced" but that's why i put the "right team"
people who have the same goals. and maybe will compromise but isn't that why you posted (Gyrovorbis) a video on game development and actually put in there you have to have the right team members (and you looked at peter and told him some stuff). So why is it that you hate it so much but still partake in it?

Exactly.

Finding the right team is insanely hard. Working with the Elysian Shadows team (now) is a great joy. It was originally my brother and my best friend--the two people who you would think would be ideal devving companions. Marcel and I don't even speak to each other anymore, and Peter barely does anything these days (read: ESRev2 might be the last time you see him as an active team member). The best team is my girlfriend and a bunch of people that I have only met online (never in real life) scattered throughout the world that I only had the privilege of meeting because of our Youtube popularity.

But of course you aren't going to believe us. It's like a band, right? Get a bunch of your programming/band homies together, start an indie project/band, and have the time of your life, right? The only way to learn is to make that mistake.

It would be a shame to see Peter go. But your dedication is an inspiration to us all Falco. Can't wait for EsRev2.

hurstshifter wrote:It would be a shame to see Peter go. But your dedication is an inspiration to us all Falco. Can't wait for EsRev2.

ditto

hurstshifter wrote:It would be a shame to see Peter go.

I will greatly miss his patchy beard.

hurstshifter wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote:

thbp wrote:Ok,I know i'm as you put it "enexperienced" but that's why i put the "right team"
people who have the same goals. and maybe will compromise but isn't that why you posted (Gyrovorbis) a video on game development and actually put in there you have to have the right team members (and you looked at peter and told him some stuff). So why is it that you hate it so much but still partake in it?

Exactly.

Finding the right team is insanely hard. Working with the Elysian Shadows team (now) is a great joy. It was originally my brother and my best friend--the two people who you would think would be ideal devving companions. Marcel and I don't even speak to each other anymore, and Peter barely does anything these days (read: ESRev2 might be the last time you see him as an active team member). The best team is my girlfriend and a bunch of people that I have only met online (never in real life) scattered throughout the world that I only had the privilege of meeting because of our Youtube popularity.

But of course you aren't going to believe us. It's like a band, right? Get a bunch of your programming/band homies together, start an indie project/band, and have the time of your life, right? The only way to learn is to make that mistake.

It would be a shame to see Peter go. But your dedication is an inspiration to us all Falco. Can't wait for EsRev2.

Peter has a new 14 year-old girlfriend and apparently can't be bothered with any sort of obligation other than kissing her ass every hour of the day. Wouldn't want Peter's new girlfriend to think he's a loser for participating in an indie game development project.

I think you're slightly misinterpreting this issue: I don't think anyone here hates all teams, or hates the idea of teams - they are just extremely wary of them. And with good reason.

Yes, if you have the "right" team, as you say, it could be great. But that depends on so much more than a person's ability to complete a task (as others have said). It's ability, commitment, drive, and vision. And yes, this plagues very small teams just as readily as large ones. Unfortunately, I speak from experience here. I work with two 3d artists (me doing the programming and audio work), and I still have to wait for them to finish things after I get everything done. And it's really frustrating, because I get several times the amount of work done in a fraction of the time that they do.

There's just no way to get a group together and each one of them have the same commitment. And when you're starting out, and for smaller projects, it's just not necessary. More often than not, a team will be a detriment to a project. Probably the best test for a team is to do a small project that you would be able to do on your own - and be prepared to do it on your own - and see how it works out in comparison to you working alone.

But the bottom line is that if you do find yourself fortunate enough to have a great team, then by all means run with it. Go make great stuff. But don't count on that happening, because the odds are far from in your favour.

GyroVorbis wrote:

hurstshifter wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote:

thbp wrote:Ok,I know i'm as you put it "enexperienced" but that's why i put the "right team"
people who have the same goals. and maybe will compromise but isn't that why you posted (Gyrovorbis) a video on game development and actually put in there you have to have the right team members (and you looked at peter and told him some stuff). So why is it that you hate it so much but still partake in it?

Exactly.

Finding the right team is insanely hard. Working with the Elysian Shadows team (now) is a great joy. It was originally my brother and my best friend--the two people who you would think would be ideal devving companions. Marcel and I don't even speak to each other anymore, and Peter barely does anything these days (read: ESRev2 might be the last time you see him as an active team member). The best team is my girlfriend and a bunch of people that I have only met online (never in real life) scattered throughout the world that I only had the privilege of meeting because of our Youtube popularity.

But of course you aren't going to believe us. It's like a band, right? Get a bunch of your programming/band homies together, start an indie project/band, and have the time of your life, right? The only way to learn is to make that mistake.

It would be a shame to see Peter go. But your dedication is an inspiration to us all Falco. Can't wait for EsRev2.

Peter has a new 14 year-old girlfriend and apparently can't be bothered with any sort of obligation other than kissing her ass every hour of the day. Wouldn't want Peter's new girlfriend to think he's a loser for participating in an indie game development project.

I had a feeling that the 'team' is down to it's nitty gritty in terms of members, but yeah your dedication is a bit inspiring, every video makes me feel productive and it's nice to know some rather intelligent people to chat with about this kind of stuff around here that share a similar passion.

I'm going to miss peter, but he did seem to be doing very very little lately... But leaving the dev team for a vagina, who would do that? Priorities man, priorities...