Elysian Shadows 3D?

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tinni5
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Elysian Shadows 3D?

Post by tinni5 »

Falco, my brother and i were discussing the finer points of DirectX and he made the point that if you are developing libGyro for Dreamcast, PSP and PC, why not use Direct3D or DIrect2D for the PC rendering? I can't speak for you or the ES dev team but i think its a good point he made.

He states "As far as i know, i could be seriously wrong, please correct me if i am, most video hardware is targeted towards Microsoft's API which makes more sense in my head as the most desirable approach. They (the ES dev team) are using OpenGL with SDL for PC, PSP, Mac and proposedly Linux with the KallistiOS handling the Dreamcast side of things (which he knows f**k all about!). This may make things easier when making a cross-platform library but it shouldn't take long to add DirectX specific rendering functions and in turn see a better end result for the PC user."

I guess what he is trying to say is, is DirectX something you considered or did you totally overlook it because of previous opinions? Personally i don't think you could go wrong with the current approach but thats the arguement we are having. I think he needs the opinion of someone who actually made the decision.

Thanks :worship:
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Live-Dimension
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Re: Elysian Shadows 3D?

Post by Live-Dimension »

While I can't vote for the team, tell me, what possible advantage is there to use DX over OGL for Windows?
i could be seriously wrong, please correct me if i am, most video hardware is targeted towards Microsoft's API which makes more sense in my head as the most desirable approach
Wrong, and right. =]

Video hardware is targeted more to DX then OGL, only because the market is. Realisticly, there is little difference between the two. AFAIK OGL has some functions DX doesn't, and DX has some stuff OGL doesn't. They both do 2D very well, both are very fast.
This may make things easier when making a cross-platform library but it shouldn't take long to add DirectX specific rendering functions and in turn see a better end result for the PC user.
Wrong and Wrong. It could take considerable time to add DX Rendering to it. Not only do you first have to learn all about DX (I don't know how much Gyro knows about it), but then you have to program it in, debug it, and alter it when you alter the rest of the code.

There are quite a lot of OGL games on windows (IE Doom 3). Did you know Doom 3 was OGL? There are plenty of others but I'd have to search them up.

So, to state all that matters.
OGL and DX are fast, very fast. ES wont be choking either pipeline soon.
OGL and DX do 2D very well.
OGL is cross platform, DX is not.

I'm sorry, but what reason does the team have to add DX to their platform? What do they gain? Myself, I wouldn't ever think about learning DX simply because OGL is cross platform, and I highly doubt I'll need anything else in the short term. DX apparently has a better SDK, but that point is moot because LibGyro already supports OGL.

I'm pretty sure you'll get a similar response from anyone else who actually knows about this stuff, and probably the same response GyroVorbis would say.
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Falco Girgis
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Re: Elysian Shadows 3D?

Post by Falco Girgis »

tinni5 wrote:He states "As far as i know, i could be seriously wrong, please correct me if i am, most video hardware is targeted towards Microsoft's API which makes more sense in my head as the most desirable approach.
Nah, this is actually wrong. The Gamecube, the Dreamcast, the PS2, the PS3, and the Wii all have MUCH more GL-like APIs. Think about it for a second. Yes, most video card vendors have better support for DirectX, but why the hell would a game console have a DirectX-like API? Why would you support your competition? OpenGL is free.
Live-Dimension wrote:I'm sorry, but what reason does the team have to add DX to their platform? What do they gain? Myself, I wouldn't ever think about learning DX simply because OGL is cross platform, and I highly doubt I'll need anything else in the short term. DX apparently has a better SDK, but that point is moot because LibGyro already supports OGL.
Exactly. What exactly would I do for the OSX or Linux builds? I would have to wind up using OpenGL one way or another. It would make absolutely no sense at all to use DirectX in Windows and then have to reimplement the wheel for other two platforms when I could just as easily kill three birds with one stone.
tinni5 wrote:This may make things easier when making a cross-platform library but it shouldn't take long to add DirectX specific rendering functions and in turn see a better end result for the PC user."
You WON'T see a better result from DirectX on Windows versus OpenGL. In a 2D game that (currently) uses only a fixed pipeline, there is absolutely nothing on this planet that DirectX can do better than OpenGL. For a modern 3D game you would still not necessarily have a "much better experience" with DirectX.
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Re: Elysian Shadows 3D?

Post by tinni5 »

GyroVorbis wrote:
tinni5 wrote:He states "As far as i know, i could be seriously wrong, please correct me if i am, most video hardware is targeted towards Microsoft's API which makes more sense in my head as the most desirable approach.
Nah, this is actually wrong. The Gamecube, the Dreamcast, the PS2, the PS3, and the Wii all have MUCH more GL-like APIs. Think about it for a second. Yes, most video card vendors have better support for DirectX, but why the hell would a game console have a DirectX-like API? Why would you support your competition? OpenGL is free.
Live-Dimension wrote:I'm sorry, but what reason does the team have to add DX to their platform? What do they gain? Myself, I wouldn't ever think about learning DX simply because OGL is cross platform, and I highly doubt I'll need anything else in the short term. DX apparently has a better SDK, but that point is moot because LibGyro already supports OGL.
Exactly. What exactly would I do for the OSX or Linux builds? I would have to wind up using OpenGL one way or another. It would make absolutely no sense at all to use DirectX in Windows and then have to reimplement the wheel for other two platforms when I could just as easily kill three birds with one stone.
tinni5 wrote:This may make things easier when making a cross-platform library but it shouldn't take long to add DirectX specific rendering functions and in turn see a better end result for the PC user."
You WON'T see a better result from DirectX on Windows versus OpenGL. In a 2D game that (currently) uses only a fixed pipeline, there is absolutely nothing on this planet that DirectX can do better than OpenGL. For a modern 3D game you would still not necessarily have a "much better experience" with DirectX.
That has effectively ruined my brothers day! lol I knew i was right. As far as the advantages go for DirectX over OpenGL for Windows i would say DirectX is made for a specific platform and the embedded versions and intergrates better with the Windows API because it relies on COM. If im not mistaken there was a DirectX variant for the Dreamcast. Obviously libGyro uses KallistiOS so thats irrelevant but i think im right in what im saying. I am a DirectX user but i was at one time strictly OpenGL but i didnt see myself developing for OSX, Linux, Solaris etc so i switched. I did know Doom 3 was OpenGL i used to work at an Apple store and we sold it. I dont want to start an OpenGL vs DirectX flame war it was just a point he made and i slightly agreed with what he said, although, i didnt think it would be worth your time to implement it given how far into development you are.
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Falco Girgis
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Re: Elysian Shadows 3D?

Post by Falco Girgis »

Yeah, there was a Microsoft Windows CE-based DirectX API for the Dreamcast along with Sega's GL-based SDK.

If you take a look at the games made with both, you will see that the ones using DirectX looked far shittier, ran far shittier, and were simply PC ports. Any game that pushed the Dreamcast in any way utilized Sega's GL-based "Katana" devkit.
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Re: Elysian Shadows 3D?

Post by tinni5 »

GyroVorbis wrote:Yeah, there was a Microsoft Windows CE-based DirectX API for the Dreamcast along with Sega's GL-based SDK.

If you take a look at the games made with both, you will see that the ones using DirectX looked far shittier, ran far shittier, and were simply PC ports. Any game that pushed the Dreamcast in any way utilized Sega's GL-based "Katana" devkit.
I was close to buying a Dreamcast devkit. It didnt have the GD-ROM burner or any GD-ROMs so i didnt bother. I was hoping to make something along the lines of Last Hope but that fell at the first hurdle.
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