Elysian Shadows

I'm getting sick of coding in this language and I'm getting tired of XNA... It's like:

"I want to do some creative operation or figure out how something works. Let's look it up...

only to receive 50000 pages of Microsoft documentation!!!!! that references itself all over the place and starts from complex, then goes to redundant, winds up at something simple, then adds 50 new terms to finish up what you thought we were starting to grasp (that only exist because Microsoft created them for their libraries). Then you realize you need to use a combination of their libraries to perform the operation that you, as a fledgling programmer, are trying to teach yourself to do, only to find out that in the end the way it's really done is hidden from you and you're only really learning to use their libraries. I don't care if it has functionality for everything, I want to know how stuff really works and do things without pouring over pages of documents to understand how to use Microsoft's libraries correctly."

This is also the reason why I hate Java.
You HAVE TO use their implementation and have to trust them that it's fast,secure and has no bugs.

I always question myself - how many C# programs are really out there? ( beside XNA games )
Is it really used that often?
Because I still dont have the most updated .net framework, just the standart one that comes with XP

I completely agree with the Microsoft documentation comments, it is awful. But to be honest java and c# are the two most popular languages in sofware development today (i'm not happy about it but it's the truth), so it's pretty important to know.

Milch wrote:This is also the reason why I hate Java.
You HAVE TO use their implementation and have to trust them that it's fast,secure and has no bugs.

I can't see what hinders you from using another implementation?

Example of a different implementation of date handling: http://www.date4j.net/

What? Microsoft documentation is excellent. And if you don't like the language and framework, why are you using them?

ismetteren wrote:

Milch wrote:This is also the reason why I hate Java.
You HAVE TO use their implementation and have to trust them that it's fast,secure and has no bugs.

I can't see what hinders you from using another implementation?

Example of a different implementation of date handling: http://www.date4j.net/

Sorry, wasn't aware that there exists something like this.
I'm still learning Java, but you seem more experienced, so I'll ask you a question.
Is it possible in Java to write, for example, your own list-implementation? (e.g a quadtree for faster rendering?)

Absolutely yes! You can write whatever it is that you need to write in Java. I try to tell people that language is second to concepts. To that extent, there has not been a single thing that I have not been able to write in Java that I've written in C, C++, or whatever language. What will happen though, is that sometimes you have to mould the idea or the concepts to fit either conceptual or linguistic limitations imposed by said language. This isn't really a problem and in many cases you may find that forcing yourself to re-evaluate problems under different constraints can be enlightening and may lead to a better solution...who knows.

That said, MSDN is among the finest free resources on programming available anywhere on the internet. If you code X11, you're going to be looking at similar documentation (trust me, it's not too dissimilar). Same goes for iOS or any of the Apple API's. It's just the nature of working with an operating system interface. It's commonly convoluted, roundabout, and perhaps a little redundant at points.

Now, teaching yourself to do the things that an OS already does (at least this is as I interpreted what you're saying), will bring you to a scope that is far broader than you're willing to get into at this point I'd suspect. So then if you really want to know "how" the API is doing what it's doing then yes, you WILL have to pour over thousands of pages of documentation. It takes teams of hundreds several years to put these things out. So I wouldn't expect for a second in the future that you should assume its an MS only thing.

If you've abandoned things like SFML, SDL, or what have you then yes...it's a complete 180 degree departure from where you were. I suspect that perhaps you should give it a rest for a bit, work on something else. Perhaps go over some documentation then come back with a new set of eyes. You may find that's all that was needed to jump that hurdle. Understand there's many more to come

I have to agree Microsoft's documentation isn't the most accessible thing ever made, but once you know what your doing it is pretty useful for XNA the documentation they supply is second to none if you look at the help documentation built into visual studio for XNA development instead of the online stuff, the same goes for direct x as well.

qpHalcy0n wrote:Absolutely yes! You can write whatever it is that you need to write in Java. I try to tell people that language is second to concepts. To that extent, there has not been a single thing that I have not been able to write in Java that I've written in C, C++, or whatever language. What will happen though, is that sometimes you have to mould the idea or the concepts to fit either conceptual or linguistic limitations imposed by said language. This isn't really a problem and in many cases you may find that forcing yourself to re-evaluate problems under different constraints can be enlightening and may lead to a better solution...who knows.

That said, MSDN is among the finest free resources on programming available anywhere on the internet. If you code X11, you're going to be looking at similar documentation (trust me, it's not too dissimilar). Same goes for iOS or any of the Apple API's. It's just the nature of working with an operating system interface. It's commonly convoluted, roundabout, and perhaps a little redundant at points.

Now, teaching yourself to do the things that an OS already does (at least this is as I interpreted what you're saying), will bring you to a scope that is far broader than you're willing to get into at this point I'd suspect. So then if you really want to know "how" the API is doing what it's doing then yes, you WILL have to pour over thousands of pages of documentation. It takes teams of hundreds several years to put these things out. So I wouldn't expect for a second in the future that you should assume its an MS only thing.

If you've abandoned things like SFML, SDL, or what have you then yes...it's a complete 180 degree departure from where you were. I suspect that perhaps you should give it a rest for a bit, work on something else. Perhaps go over some documentation then come back with a new set of eyes. You may find that's all that was needed to jump that hurdle. Understand there's many more to come

completely agreed. I'm just getting into using the system-level libraries (X11 mainly atm), and I have to agree. Going from SDL/SFML to straight X11, well... it's just a very different beast. Sometimes, you have to learn 2 things at once in order to understand either, sometimes you simply won't understand it until you have an epiphany later on. And qp has tried to teach me all the stuff that happens behind 3D graphics rendering... and believe me, I was lost 3/4 of the time. Don't be discouraged if you can't understand something today because trust me, you will understand it in the future.

EccentricDuck wrote:I'm getting sick of coding in this language and I'm getting tired of XNA... It's like:

"I want to do some creative operation or figure out how something works. Let's look it up...

only to receive 50000 pages of Microsoft documentation!!!!! that references itself all over the place and starts from complex, then goes to redundant, winds up at something simple, then adds 50 new terms to finish up what you thought we were starting to grasp (that only exist because Microsoft created them for their libraries). Then you realize you need to use a combination of their libraries to perform the operation that you, as a fledgling programmer, are trying to teach yourself to do, only to find out that in the end the way it's really done is hidden from you and you're only really learning to use their libraries. I don't care if it has functionality for everything, I want to know how stuff really works and do things without pouring over pages of documents to understand how to use Microsoft's libraries correctly."

I used to use XNA, quit after 2 weeks... Either that or suicide :/
JK, its not that bad... But, still, I hated it.

How dare you hippies insult Microsoft... I'm sure I'll wind up seeing you guys at Starbucks with tight girl pants, a neckbeard, big black glasses with no lenses, and a Macbook Pro... you trendy fuckers.

But seriously. You think that's terrible? Look at iOS/OSX documentation.

Goldilocks and the Three Programmers

Java and C# are too OO
C and ASM are too Procedural
C++ is just right!

mv2112 wrote:Goldilocks and the Three Programmers

Java and C# are too OO
C and ASM are too Procedural
C++ is just right!

GyroVorbis wrote: But seriously. You think that's terrible? Look at iOS/OSX documentation.

You got a point... :/
Nothing in the world of programming can ever be perfect after all...

MisterReplicant wrote:

GyroVorbis wrote: But seriously. You think that's terrible? Look at iOS/OSX documentation.

You got a point... :/
Nothing in the world of programming can ever be perfect after all...

Not sure what his experience with it is, or what specific part he is referring to, but the apple developer pages are very well done, and their documentation is extensive to say the least. And I know the MSDN pages can be "strange", but the are very very good.

http://developer.apple.com/library/mac/navigation/