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North Korea going to war?

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 3:09 pm
by Marx Chaotix
I'm sure a handful of you already know this but, as of recently North Korea was once again hitting the national news (crazy damned North Koreans) for firing a multitude of rounds into the South Korean territory killing innocent civilizians in the process. It was said that 110 artillery rounds were fired in total. Shortly after the firing several politicians from China came to meet with the North Korean government for negotiations. However, unfortunately for everyone China was reported to have said nothing to urge North Korea from ceasing their attacks. All they really said pretty much was they didn't like them attacking on their Chinese border. They never really said anything urging them to stop. =/ I doubt China really cares to much.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/27/world ... korea.html


I again still stand by my predictions of what I've said in my earlier posts. I really and truly do feel that North Korea is on the verge of cracking and re-declaring war. And China is definately going to take advantage of this to go at our throats in a frenzy. :| What do you guys think? I would've tried to find more articles only I'm in class right now so I can't exactly find any more juicy articles. If anyone can find any more related to this discussion please feel free to post.


I just can't believe the nerve of the North Koreans to actually, "FIRE" more rounds even after the American embassedors left. There's no way in hell they were just drills. It's only a matter of time before they get the nerve to actually attack the South. *shudders* I'm so glad that I'm not there. >_<;


I'd also like to hear everyone's ideas on this issue. Could this really be the bring of a possible WW3? I personally see that as a definite probability. It just sucks because blizzard is there :x If war does ever occur they'll have to relocate. lol

Re: North Korea going to war?

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:51 pm
by houston
I share your fears; I just hope that there is nothing Julian Assange is in possession off that could make matters worse!

It did not help with the fact that one of the leaks indicated that China would rather see NK being governed by the South as this has without doubt just made NK more paranoid and determined not to be undermined.
Further if you've been paying much attention lately to the rapid militarization of China and demilitarization of country's such as UK and France its a very worrying situation indeed. This is also way Japan is seeking approval from the EU and the US for upgrading its own military stance in the region, I believe the EU will allow this to go forward as they really don't seem to have much reason to deny it. But I'd also say the rapid militarization of China can be partly blamed on the US for supplying Taiwan with military hardware. Either way it's looking bad, North Korea has been a problem for too long and I think the current leader is on his way out and the new buck wants to flex his muscle on the world stage..


depressing stuff.

Re: North Korea going to war?

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 4:53 pm
by cypher1554R
North Korea is just jealous.
And angry of being the only country in the world that's less advanced than its southern neighbour. :)

Re: North Korea going to war?

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 5:29 pm
by Marx Chaotix
cypher1554R wrote:North Korea is just jealous.
And angry of being the only country in the world that's less advanced than its southern neighbour. :)
Yeah that's definitely true. Although North Korea boasts a superior military power. (lol I checked on Wikipedia =P says they're the 4th most powerful military power) South Korea beats the pants off of them for having a far more superior economy. If North Korea ever wanted a quick conquest of South Korea without any military involvement from South Korea's allies, the only way to really ever achieve this goal is probably to do a blitzkrieg. But I really do hope that everyone learns to forget about WW2 and put that aside for Japan (at least for now). Because if we leave Japan without any defenses they'll be up for a helluva mad-house of slaughter >_<; that'd just be horrifying. And I just hope that we (The U.S.) would stop dividing ourselves over stupid political crap and money. We need to become more self-sufficient from China and tap into our natural resources. That is literally like the only reason for our temporal alliances. I mean can you honestly imagine just how badly we'd be f#cked if China one day just decided to pull the plug on American and stop virtually all trades? Good god. We'd flop over like a fish and it'd take YEARS for us to even get back up on our own two feet again.

Here's a visual representation of Both the united states against China through just about everything (through both economy population etc...)

http://www.mint.com/blog/finance-core/c ... omparison/


...OMG there is no way that could be true....red is china and whitish grey is the United States. That is just....scary like seriously

Re: North Korea going to war?

Posted: Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:17 pm
by houston
Marx Chaotix wrote:
cypher1554R wrote:North Korea is just jealous.
And angry of being the only country in the world that's less advanced than its southern neighbour. :)
Yeah that's definitely true. Although North Korea boasts a superior military power. (lol I checked on Wikipedia =P says they're the 4th most powerful military power) South Korea beats the pants off of them for having a far more superior economy. If North Korea ever wanted a quick conquest of South Korea without any military involvement from South Korea's allies, the only way to really ever achieve this goal is probably to do a blitzkrieg. But I really do hope that everyone learns to forget about WW2 and put that aside for Japan (at least for now). Because if we leave Japan without any defenses they'll be up for a helluva mad-house of slaughter >_<; that'd just be horrifying. And I just hope that we (The U.S.) would stop dividing ourselves over stupid political crap and money. We need to become more self-sufficient from China and tap into our natural resources. That is literally like the only reason for our temporal alliances. I mean can you honestly imagine just how badly we'd be f#cked if China one day just decided to pull the plug on American and stop virtually all trades? Good god. We'd flop over like a fish and it'd take YEARS for us to even get back up on our own two feet again.

Here's a visual representation of Both the united states against China through just about everything (through both economy population etc...)

http://www.mint.com/blog/finance-core/c ... omparison/


...OMG there is no way that could be true....red is china and whitish grey is the United States. That is just....scary like seriously


Blitzkrieg; I believe this was once their intension a few years back when the South discovered that the North had unbelievably dug tunnels under the border and and tanks actually inside them ready to pop up a few hundred yards across... Recent reports coming from NK have surfaced showing discontent for their government something we in the rest of the world have not been able to see, but at least this is a start in the knowledge that the people of NK are not completely brain washed.. I'd like to see a peaceful solution to the whole saga and was hoping that his son who was 'believe it or not' educated in England, would have a better grasp on reality in the world but it would so far seem not to be.

Also if you check CIA world facebook you can see that China has almost 1 billion people that can be called for military service 'scary stuff'.. I don't think any nation not even most of them combined can compete on that level. :worship: lol


houston

Re: North Korea going to war?

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 4:31 am
by EccentricDuck
Marx Chaotix wrote:
cypher1554R wrote:North Korea is just jealous.
And angry of being the only country in the world that's less advanced than its southern neighbour. :)
Yeah that's definitely true. Although North Korea boasts a superior military power. (lol I checked on Wikipedia =P says they're the 4th most powerful military power) South Korea beats the pants off of them for having a far more superior economy. If North Korea ever wanted a quick conquest of South Korea without any military involvement from South Korea's allies, the only way to really ever achieve this goal is probably to do a blitzkrieg. But I really do hope that everyone learns to forget about WW2 and put that aside for Japan (at least for now). Because if we leave Japan without any defenses they'll be up for a helluva mad-house of slaughter >_<; that'd just be horrifying. And I just hope that we (The U.S.) would stop dividing ourselves over stupid political crap and money. We need to become more self-sufficient from China and tap into our natural resources. That is literally like the only reason for our temporal alliances. I mean can you honestly imagine just how badly we'd be f#cked if China one day just decided to pull the plug on American and stop virtually all trades? Good god. We'd flop over like a fish and it'd take YEARS for us to even get back up on our own two feet again.

Here's a visual representation of Both the united states against China through just about everything (through both economy population etc...)

http://www.mint.com/blog/finance-core/c ... omparison/


...OMG there is no way that could be true....red is china and whitish grey is the United States. That is just....scary like seriously
Actually, to correct your point, North Korea is said to have the 4th largest available standing army (whether that's true or not, or whether that includes available reserve forces, I don't know). That just means that it can call a lot of people when it needs them. That's scary in the case of a land war in Korea, but keep in mind that their infrastructure can't support itself as it is. They rely on China for massive aid (although, China could very well supply the country with everything it needs in the event of an emergency). They are definitely not the 4th most powerful though - not by a long shot. South Korea has, overall, a more capable military than they do. The scary part really is if a blitzkrieg type attack were carried out where the South Koreans are overwhelmed by superior numbers before they get a chance to respond (even if the South Koreans have far better infrastructure and mobility).

Also, I'm surprised that seeing that visual representation surprises you so much. That seems about spot on with what I already knew between the two countries. Maybe it's because I have an external perspective, but most of that stuff has been pretty clear for awhile. China has a far larger population, larger standing army, a massive trade surplus (with the US having a massive trade deficit), and in general their infrastructure is quickly catching up the US. Also of interest, and not shown there, is that China has ~90% of the world's discovered deposits of rare earth minerals that are essential for a lot of interesting technology (like superconducting materials). They don't have the same oil reserves as the US (which is part of why they've tried to establish positive relations with several middle eastern countries and OPEC), but both countries have a hell of a lot of coal.

There's a lot of interesting stuff in there, but it shouldn't be that surprising. Or perhaps I'm being too naive regarding US media coverage and openness of information.
houston wrote:I share your fears; I just hope that there is nothing Julian Assange is in possession off that could make matters worse!
I have mixed opinions about what he did. In some ways, I think he should be congratulated. There's too strong a tendency to lock information away or keep it in the hands of a few, trusting them with information that could have influence over the fate of many, when there a plethora of solutions available to make use of that information. However, I think that his move was stupid politically - it didn't prove any sort of invaluable lesson in the manner in which it was released - and there are many documents which compromise innocents in active war zones. A much better approach would be to use it as a tool to rectify any injustices he saw in the documents in a targeted manner, and release that which he thought necessary.

That's basically saying that I don't think all the information should be released, but it's more for practical political (strategic) reasons. Information like that will always be available if someone with the know-how and desire wants it. We live in too connected of a world for that not to be the case. Really, that makes it more a tool than anything - and I think that he used it wrong. The world doesn't need someone to leak the names of innocents in a war zone (along with tons of other information - that being a relatively minor part), and to see someone responsible for opening the flow of information be the attack of a smear campaign. His information was poorly targeted, and if anything, I see the results as being discouraging for anyone who'd consider questioning secrecy.


I honestly believe that if there's going to be a major conflict, it's going to first be waged on the information/technology front. Major infrastructure like the power grid, finance, and military structures will be attacked and there will potentially be a black out. If Wall Street was taken down, the US economy would crumble. I'm going to ask an honest question. Where do you think the best response would come from in a situation like that? I honestly don't think that it would come from any sort of central point, because no central point could coordinate actions against such an attack. You'd need a distributed and decentralized command structure and infrastructure (unlike the US' highly centralized command structure and infrastructure). The US, far more than any other nation on the planet, has the ability to mobilize itself rapidly to nearly any hotspot with relatively large-scale support. No other nation can claim that (for the time being). However, do you think that would be possible if major communication networks and infrastructure started failing? Not a chance.

I don't entirely agree with the total centralization of any process or decision making, partially because it's incredibly vulnerable to attack. I feel the same way about information. No one should hold the only key to vital information, particularly if they're a potential target. People, as a collective, may act as unruly mobs, and information may be used with malicious intent, but I think it's far too easy to be willing to lock up important information due to what may be considered a justified cause at the time.

Re: North Korea going to war?

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:20 am
by houston
I have mixed opinions about what he did. In some ways, I think he should be congratulated. There's too strong a tendency to lock information away or keep it in the hands of a few, trusting them with information that could have influence over the fate of many, when there a plethora of solutions available to make use of that information. However, I think that his move was stupid politically - it didn't prove any sort of invaluable lesson in the manner in which it was released - and there are many documents which compromise innocents in active war zones. A much better approach would be to use it as a tool to rectify any injustices he saw in the documents in a targeted manner, and release that which he thought necessary.

That's basically saying that I don't think all the information should be released, but it's more for practical political (strategic) reasons. Information like that will always be available if someone with the know-how and desire wants it. We live in too connected of a world for that not to be the case. Really, that makes it more a tool than anything - and I think that he used it wrong. The world doesn't need someone to leak the names of innocents in a war zone (along with tons of other information - that being a relatively minor part), and to see someone responsible for opening the flow of information be the attack of a smear campaign. His information was poorly targeted, and if anything, I see the results as being discouraging for anyone who'd consider questioning secrecy.
I do agree; although I don't think any of the leaks thus far have warranted a "need to know" argument from the public, none of these leaks have shown us anything we don't already know besides diplomats and political figures chatting "frankly" amongst themselves and this is something governments need to be able to do. There has been strong feelings and reactions towards video footage regarding civilian deaths caused by troops but do we really think that any "war" is fought that does not harbor such outrageous things from any nation! I've always been against any form of military action but I realize the need for such action, I guess that makes me a conscientious objector of sorts. No war has ever been fought without casualties and no war can be fought without wrong doing its the very nature of war itself. I guess it comes down to who is willing to do things and for what reasons for doing them, most decisions are made by a few and under great stress, not every decision can be the correct one or the proper one to make in such cases.

I've always believed that older more mature men and women? should be able to fight on front lines and not children as young as 17, I'd go as far as mid 20's on this one and suggest anybody under 25 should not be allowed on the front! But I guess the reason for selection of young has nothing to do with physical fitness but rather the fact the younger the soldier the more likely they are to follow orders without question, may they be stupid orders or not.


houston.

Re: North Korea going to war?

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:05 am
by Marx Chaotix
@ Eccentric Duck

I suppose you're right. I'm well aware that China is recently becoming a powerful adversary to the United States and that the United States has a certain amount of influence on our countries' perception of how we fair against them. I guess you could say after hearing forever as long as you can remember, "US is #1 this US is the best at that we're the best blah blah blah" You'd at least think we'd have the bite to back the bark so to speak. ;) And I'm aware that China is doing tremendously well financially considering the fact that nearly everyone's main supplier of goods and imports are straight from the Chinese shores. It seems like the only thing we've been able to boast is our military power which saddens me really =/ the only thing we're good at is clobbering the hell out of our enemies.


As for the Korean situation, I do believe that war is very imminent. The main thing that concerns me over that matter is the idea that China could very well get involved in military conflict. Especially considering that North Korea has been in alliance with China for such a long period of time. South Korea however would more than likely be capable of defeating them (especially with the aid of their allies) But I don't like the idea of so many people dying and the fact that the poverty ridden peoples of North Korea are going to be forced into fighting a war they probably never wanted to have to begin with. Even though these two countries are divided doesn't mean they aren't appart of the same nation. This is like the American Civil war they'll be killing their own brothers and sisters. It just saddens me to see that.

Re: North Korea going to war?

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 8:07 pm
by davidthefat
So, here is my story: I came to California when I was 7 in January 13, 2001. Now, I was born in South Korea, so I am a Korean citizen as of now. I am only a permanent resident of these United States of America. I am turning 17 next month, in Korea that would mean I would turn 18 due to their weird aging system. I would be a legal adult in Korea, and if there were to be a war, chances are there will also be a draft. WTF do I do if there is a draft? Are they gonna call me up and enlist me? No way are they going to put a M 16 in my hand and tell me to shoot some of those red bastards. There is no way that is happening


BTW North Korea is desperate. They are starving, they want attention. They have been doing small stupid things like this ever since '53. They want aid from the USA and SK. No way they are willing to go for an all out war, they only have a decent army. Their air force sucks dick (Old WW2 era jets) their Navy sucks. Plus they got no food for their army to even maintain war. If they go to war, there will be no aid what so ever and would be sieged in unless China helps, but China does not want to risk war with the US, North Korea is not worth that.

Re: North Korea going to war?

Posted: Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:31 pm
by houston
davidthefat wrote:So, here is my story: I came to California when I was 7 in January 13, 2001. Now, I was born in South Korea, so I am a Korean citizen as of now. I am only a permanent resident of these United States of America. I am turning 17 next month, in Korea that would mean I would turn 18 due to their weird aging system. I would be a legal adult in Korea, and if there were to be a war, chances are there will also be a draft. WTF do I do if there is a draft? Are they gonna call me up and enlist me? No way are they going to put a M 16 in my hand and tell me to shoot some of those red bastards. There is no way that is happening


BTW North Korea is desperate. They are starving, they want attention. They have been doing small stupid things like this ever since '53. They want aid from the USA and SK. No way they are willing to go for an all out war, they only have a decent army. Their air force sucks dick (Old WW2 era jets) their Navy sucks. Plus they got no food for their army to even maintain war. If they go to war, there will be no aid what so ever and would be sieged in unless China helps, but China does not want to risk war with the US, North Korea is not worth that.

My biggest fear with NK is they have some very advanced nuclear setups, more so than the west had realized until recent... It was believed they had a few reactors but as it turns out they have over a thousand and state of the art equipment running all this so how did they manage this? China is the only nation that could have done that or even had the balls after all they built Pakistanis and much of Irans. I'm sure if your called up for service you can always do what I would do ... run like fack! lol but I'm sure it'll never happen ;)