J-Force Games

[Falco Girgis]

So... has anybody seen their latest video? "How to get banned from TIGD... twice"?

I don't get why they'd flaunt that. They're just making the entire indie gamedev scene hate them by putting on their fake macho, narcissistic persona on camera. We're a bunch of nerds, not a bunch of women impressed by the type of would-be grandiosity that they try so desperately to give themselves.

[MarauderIIC]

I haven't watched any yet and don't really intend to....

[dandymcgee]

edit: I don't want people to say "I'd buy it... but I'm just going to download it." They'd have to say "Goddamn, I want all the extras!!"

That's an excellent idea lol.. you can't torrent signatures! (i think..?)

[Arce]

LMFAO!

They've taken their stuff...A step lower? o.o;;

Check out some of the comments. LMFAO! Disabled ratings and comments now. XD

You should give us a guide on how to get banned on your forums too.

[cronjob00]

Yeah I agree that it makes the indie game comunity look bad plus I dont find them funny at all more annoying then anything plus there is like 5 people on the team but only 1 programer and 1 artist.

[dandymcgee]

Supposedly there's 6 people on the team (according to their site), but you're right about there only being one programmer.

Jonny Eden - Programmer, Designer
Jordan Blakey - Artist, Designer
Justin Overton - Technical Advisor
Jeremy Eden - Business Manager, Designer
Jesse Leverett - Designer
Ty Dauster - Designer

Is it just me, or does the fact that they have 5 people designing, and one person programming seem a bit unbalanced? I guess everyone tosses their ideas into a hat and the programmer picks one out randomly and has to program it

[patio]

so why dont you guys sell your game?

Also did you read his post where he tries to justify him being on the team as if he's needed? http://jforcegames.com/forums/viewtopic.php?id=46

There just some noobs making a crappy 2d shooter. He acts like there a big corporation or something. Their game isnt going to make any money, that is if they even finish it.

[MarauderIIC]

so why dont you guys sell your game?

Morals or ethics or personal beliefs or humility or something xD.

In all seriousness, though, I can think of a list of reasons:
It'd probably be a pain in the butt.
Some of us have enough headaches right now.
Some people may or may not be using paid-for versions of some software.
Some of us are living comfortably enough right now.
We'd rather people enjoyed our game rather than paid for it.
We don't have to spend any money on the game itself, why should other people?
- Unless they want to. Send all donations to the team member of your choice.

Gyro probably has some other reason, but those work for me. =)

[cypher1554R]

Also did you read his post where he tries to justify him being on the team as if he's needed?

Sounds like they are making the game JUST to sell it (try to)..

But if you sell your game.. doesn't that kick you out of the "indie" bin..

"We're gonna sell the best indie game ever" .. sounds like a paradox to me..

[MarauderIIC]

Can't it still be "indie" if they publish it themselves?
Also, he makes a strong argument about the marketing thing. I don't say I agree with it but he does support it well with evidence from other people (successes? I don't recall anymore) in the industry.

[Falco Girgis]

So I've been researching J-Force extensively, because I can. Because I'm a nosy bastard. They have the drive, the motivation, the passion, and the things that make success. But their "theory" that their marketer says came from "8 months of extensive market research" is fundamentally flawed.

These "fundamental" flaws can be blamed on their extreme inexperience. You can go out and study the macro and micro economics of homebrew video games, but it really doesn't do a team much good if they don't realize how a game is made, how much work it takes, etc.

They are "marketing"
Now this wouldn't be a mistake at all, if they understood more about the game development process. The marketing guy's research and findings are sound, but you don't market until you have a product to show off. Their level of completion on that game must be less than 10%. They're pushing for all of this marketing, publicity, advertising--why? The people who are going to see this are going to be fellow indie developers (like us) who only see a very, very rough game, concepts that may never be implemented, and an arrogance combined with lack of experience that makes it hard for us to take them seriously.

Then the consumers are going to see this, and they are going to immediately lose interest. Their product doesn't exist. There's not enough of a game to show off, there's nothing there to entice consumers. They're going to shrug it off after their first impression and never give it a second chance.

The marketing guy understands the importance of marketing. It's clear that he really has done his homework, and he has my respect for that, but his fundamental ignorance of the entire game development process is going to be the fall of his entire "master scheme."

I like these guys. I think they have passion, motivation, drive, and all that good stuff despite their arrogance (which they haven't yet earned). I'd like to be proven wrong.

source: http://www.dreamincode.net/forums/showtopic43839.htm - They've posted that in every major programming forum on the internet. Read their links in the post about the "theory for success."

[trufun202]

The extremely RARE case of an indie game generating revenue typically comes from something truly original - a new concept / twist that redefines the genre.

I don't see this level of originality in their game. To be fair, I don't have much originality in my game either - but I have no intentions of selling it either...

Getting people to buy indie games is extremely difficult. Especially with the quality of games that people can get for free. I tried to have a small business selling mobile games, but failed miserably. I had 4 Java-based cellphone games selling at 3 bucks a pop and didn't make squat. I think I sold 2 copies.

But...best of luck to them, I guess we'll see.

[MarauderIIC]

The marketing guy's research and findings are sound, but you don't market until you have a product to show off.

Wrong: you can generate plenty of hype (marketing!) without a product to show off. Sony generates hype with pre-rendered videos, for instance. Black & White generated lots of hype through interviews.
Duke Nukem Forever has plenty of hype.... but you won't buy it.

So a related statement that is true would be:
You don't market until you have a product in a near-demo state.

Hype all you want. It's effective. It makes people sit up and want more. But you have to deliver more soon (within a year and a half or so, I'd guess), and that more has to be actual gameplay demo, or you'll get tagged as vaporware by the people you hyped to. I guess you'd call it "Tell & Show" :)

[Arce]

My thoughts are this:

Their game does not have enough originality to sell how they want. Perhaps they will sell, some. To developers, and those who watch their videos. But it will be a highly insignificant amount of money.

Who is willing to pay money for an indie game when they can simply google "boxhead" and get instant, free flash games of greater quality, design, and originality than their own? Only other developers (and, due to the fact that they're using 360, all other 360 developers will get free access to it, will they not?) and fans.

Until I see some magical idea or steak of uniqueness they pull out of their asses, I simply cannot believe people will have enough incentive to buy. Regardless of how cheap.

So, this is my questions. How many copies do you actually think they can sell? Enough to make it worth creation and having sold?

In their ad they've stated an estimated goal of 100,000. Realistic?

Also, they're recruiting. Obviously they've taken note of their unbalanced team and are looking for more professional help. More team members, more of a money cut. atm, 100,000 6 ways is 16k each, minus expenses for development. That's no pocket change. Again, realistic? That means they're counting on at very LEAST 20,000 buyers.

[Arce]

Huge success:
http://www.alleyinsider.com/2008/8/indi ... first-week

So much so...?
http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2006/10/100 ... game_1.php

Second guy made ~100,000 in a full year of being sold. He's a professional who works for the industry now...And that 100k is total sales, not including Microsoft's cut. Compare his game to Jforce's. I'd assume this is where they draw inspiration?

More indie sales info.
http://www.gameproducer.net/category/sales-statistics/

Now, again, do you think these guys can do it? The majority of these games are making 10k, which is being split among their 2 person teams, and is accumulated throughout an several years. Though if they're lucky and play their cards right, maybe it's possible.