Mistakes in game design (whining newbie)

[pubby8]

I wrote a lengthy reply to first few people, but stupid IE deleted post after misprint, so I summarize what I said:

@pritam: Face reality.

@N64vSNES: The team learned a lot during project. They definately improved their engine, graphics, etc - but not some of their fundamental flaws. A good engine is expected to be rewrote in several iterations - a good team is not. Also, you need to get the idea out of your head that "people with higher iq" are always correct and superior. In reality, those people are the most ignorant fools, and will be surpassed in the long run by idiots.

@hurstshifter: Bearrick?

@adikid89: Yes, I am a gamemaker fan. I don't see how this is relevant, however I would love to discuss it.

@Gyrovorbis: Where did I say that my opinion mattered more than anyones? If you don't want to take my advice, then simply decline and continue to go about your buisness.

It is very good to be passionate about something, and I respect/enjoy your vlogs. There is nothing wrong with this. The biggest problem is your approch to dealing with criticism - I would have never bothered you if not for the namecalling on youtube + irc.

1. Are you sure you are #1? I don't keep up to speed on such things, but I watch "wolfire games" youtube and they have 10000 subs. You are clearly very succesful on youtube, and I only am telling you my opinion so you achieve similar success with your game.

2,3. I do not see what this has to do with the mistakes I've mentioned.

4,5. You have many things you do, and I am only criticizing one aspect.

There are thousands of people better than you, and I don't see them being all arrogant about it.

Imagine if george washington took to your attitude of being arrogant asshole who doesn't listen to anyone - we wouldn't have the USA! You need to get it out of your head that being better means you are always right - pointing out flaws is not pointing out how person A is better than person B!

Nobody with any form of self respect or pride in his own work would pour his heart and soul into a project, work hard to share it with the world via videos that are literally a pain in the ass to create, and honestly promote his fellow game developers then take criticism from some random nobody on Youtube insulting the work, personality, and integrity of you and your project

So I assume you posted your videos to youtube to get a pat on the back and be to be told that all your work has meaning. Take a hit once in a while, learn from it and rebound - prove to me that you can actually get a game done and I'll stop complaining.
Think about all the successes you've had with project - you have the right to be respected for this.
But think about all the mistakes you've had - you must take the criticism along with the support.

Also, I hope you realize that the point of this topic was not for me to earn recognition, but for you to face the facts.
I really hope you get it out of your heads that this was not intended to be "who's better" discussion (I've said this many times)!

[Falco Girgis]

I don't think you understand the underlying theme here.

This has nothing to do with an inability to take criticism. This has nothing to do with me not respecting the opinions of others. I have learned more from other people and by listening to criticism than I could have by simply researching and sitting alone in my room.

I take criticism from people who have given me a reason to respect them. You have demonstrated nothing but jealousy, lack of experience, and a sense of self-righteousness that you have yet to demonstrate you have earned. This is the textbook definition of narcissism.

I do not refuse to take criticism. I refuse to take criticism from people like you who are clearly far below my level. Arrogant? Sure. But guess what, that's how the academic world works.

I did have a problem with taking criticism from my viewers--reference my angst-driven "Virgin Monologues," video about the Nice Lord J, and response to JForce games. I have since learned (from people more experienced and far more certain of their own opinions than I am of mine) to ignore these kinds of people. You can't teach people what passion means. You can't teach ignorant people to respect your work. You can't teach idiots to not be idiots.

Also, you need to get the idea out of your head that "people with higher iq" are always correct and superior. In reality, those people are the most ignorant fools, and will be surpassed in the long run by idiots.

You are unrivaled in your idiocy. Statements like this make you go from looking like an attention-seeking, semi altruistic, annoying rookie to being a complete babbling, incoherent moron with self worth issues.

[avansc]

pubby8 wrote:
prove to me that you can actually get a game done and I'll stop complaining.

I really hope you get it out of your heads that this was not intended to be "who's better" discussion (I've said this many times)!


Now I dont really want to get to involved in this, because I think while you are rather condescending and and obtuse you do make *SOME* good points. Id like to focus on these 2 lines of your post.

Why do you think you have a right to complain if he does not do something that has nothing to do with you, lets assume he is the most pompous ass and oversells everything he does. Why do you feel the need to accost him about it? You talk about being mature and learning from lessons.. if he is just this arrogant prick, why even bother giving him a modicum of your time..?

The second thing is that you take a very authoritative role. like your word is law.. your opinion is the only one that matters. Yanno, you talk about all the "fanboys" on here, and yea there are some of them, and Id be the first to tell you how annoying it is. If you knew much about the forums here, you would know that there are heated debates at times with falco, at times he is right, and at times he is wrong, and every time he is wrong he acknowledge it.

The sad part is I see alot of myself in your post, and that makes me cringe.. but hey, I know im a asshole.

[k1net1k]

so pubby8, just to confirm.

your criticism of GyroVorbis is that
1) he is arrogant
2) the game isnt finished and that does not impress you

thats pretty much all im getting here

[BugInTheSYS]

thats pretty much all im getting here

Me too.
Proposal: Posts you shouldn't make... discussion seems rather inappropriate as i see it

[xiphirx]

I think he accidentally a topic.

[N64vSNES]

As Gyro pointed out, they're having fun and the development is going smoothly. What's the issue? If you don't like it why waste your time posting this shit?

[bluesoul120]

Mistake 1: forming teams prematurely
If you are going to design an "indie game," please don't get a team together until you've gotten the majority of the programming done! Artists are great to have, but they always leave shortly after, as they either lose interest or have nothing to do.

1. Um it's a little difficult/boring to create a full game without graphics.

2. It wasn't just the engine being made. A team was necessary for the other components.

Mistake 2: promoting early
A community is a great thing to have - it gives you people to play your game, and also support. The problem is that communities should be formed only after the game is nearly complete! Why?- well if you have a community, you start to make false promises to them. Game devs will spend hours discussing their game to community, in lieu of actually making it. Also, the bigger the community, the harder you will fall if your game dies!

The community was made for more than just Elysian Shadows. Look at the name of the forum..."The Chaos Rift". The game wasn't even on the mind when this community started. Also Gyro and team have never made false promises and they don't sit around on the forum douching their asses.

Mistake 3: being arrogant
Telling yourself you are a god can do great things to your ego, but it only hurts your performance. It is very stupid to scream at anyone who criticizes what you have done - many times it will turn out that they are right, and you only discover this far down the road AFTER you make the mistake (*cough* engine rewrite *cough*).
I know gyrovorbis is a decent programmer, but he is not "godly" enough to be so arrogant! He will learn much faster and write better code if he becomes more humble and realizes that he is not god's gift to computers.

Arrogance is a sign of intelligence. Those who have proven their worth deserve to be arrogant. Falco has done more in his teen years than most programmers do in their entire career; I think he has the right to be arrogant.

(I do not mean to be calling anyone here an "idiot fanboy" - as I don't know anyone here besides GyroVorbis!)

Don't try to make it seem like you're not calling us idiot fanboys. People like you think you can apologize and get away with things. The real world doesn't work like that. You're going to say something out of line to the wrong person and they're going to make you eat your words. If you're going to insult someone just man up and do it.

Example: I think you're an adolescent dick who needs to mind his fucking business until he earns the right to walk in the world of men. I will not apologize for my opinion and I take responsibility for my words.

Mistake 5: not listening to critique
Critique is great - it forces you to fix your flaws, instead of covering them up. While many people hate getting told they suck, it is much better to "have sucked" than to "still suck" - you can fix your mistakes and improve if you listen to critique!
Side note: if this gets put into that wall-of-shame board and I get banned, then all hope is lost for you, and you will never amount to anything.

So he shouldn't listen to his fans but he should listen to you? I think there's some issues in your logic, especially because you have no weight in this community.

Just to sum things up for you...you're a dick and see yourself off of this site. Thank you and good bye.

[pubby8]

I take criticism from people who have given me a reason to respect them. You have demonstrated nothing but jealousy, lack of experience, and a sense of self-righteousness that you have yet to demonstrate you have earned. This is the textbook definition of narcissism.

Last time I checked, narcissism meant you held the illusion that everybody lacked experience and were jealous of yourself. I do not want to be your, nor do I care about the great "achievement" of a delayed engine that doesn't deliver.

You can't teach ignorant people to respect your work.

You've got it backwards. The consumer owes you nothing! Any company that does not know this (*cough* sega *cough*) ends up failure.

You are unrivaled in your idiocy. Statements like this make you go from looking like an attention-seeking, semi altruistic, annoying rookie to being a complete babbling, incoherent moron with self worth issues.

Ah yes, I clearly have self-worth issues for not kissing your feet!

Why do you think you have a right to complain if he does not do something that has nothing to do with you, lets assume he is the most pompous ass and oversells everything he does. Why do you feel the need to accost him about it? You talk about being mature and learning from lessons.. if he is just this arrogant prick, why even bother giving him a modicum of your time..?

There are times when certain people piss you off too much to simply leave them be. I know gryovorbis knows this:

reference my angst-driven "Virgin Monologues," video about the Nice Lord J

The second thing is that you take a very authoritative role. like your word is law.. your opinion is the only one that matters. Yanno, you talk about all the "fanboys" on here, and yea there are some of them, and Id be the first to tell you how annoying it is. If you knew much about the forums here, you would know that there are heated debates at times with falco, at times he is right, and at times he is wrong, and every time he is wrong he acknowledge it.

I'll admit to having some wrong first-impressions of you guys - spamfests on irc aren't good introductions. Anyways, I hold respect for the people who have taken time to reply, and I hope we can participate in many more discussions.

so pubby8, just to confirm.

your criticism of GyroVorbis is that
1) he is arrogant
2) the game isnt finished and that does not impress you

thats pretty much all im getting here

?

Me too.
Proposal: Posts you shouldn't make... discussion seems rather inappropriate as i see it

Walls-of-shame make me sick.

As Gyro pointed out, they're having fun and the development is going smoothly. What's the issue? If you don't like it why waste your time posting this shit?

If you don't like me posting this topic, and have nothing to say, why post at all?

Um it's a little difficult/boring to create a full game without graphics.

It's harder to make graphics without an engine. Worst case scenario is when you have artists dictating how the engine works because they did all their work too early on and do not want to change it.

It wasn't just the engine being made. A team was necessary for the other components.

A team is necessary, but not while engine is being made. It is a personal choice of when to form a team, but in my view ES's team was formed too early.

The community was made for more than just Elysian Shadows. Look at the name of the forum..."The Chaos Rift". The game wasn't even on the mind when this community started. Also Gyro and team have never made false promises and they don't sit around on the forum douching their asses.

Disregard what I have said about ES and forming community early, but keep in mind that communities still don't speed up the end-product. False promises - maybe not, but there sure is a lot of false hope for the project. Will it ever be completed - well not for a very very long time (years) in my eyes.
90% of posts on forums are just a waste of time. Communities are a very fun thing to have, but nearly everyone can admit to wasting time having pointless arguments over pointless things on them!

Arrogance is a sign of intelligence. Those who have proven their worth deserve to be arrogant. Falco has done more in his teen years than most programmers do in their entire career; I think he has the right to be arrogant.

No it's not. I respect arrogant intelligent people, but I hold much more respect for humble ones.

Don't try to make it seem like you're not calling us idiot fanboys. People like you think you can apologize and get away with things. The real world doesn't work like that. You're going to say something out of line to the wrong person and they're going to make you eat your words. If you're going to insult someone just man up and do it.

In the real world, people don't get all when someone insults a random programmer.

Example: I think you're an adolescent dick who needs to mind his fucking business until he earns the right to walk in the world of men. I will not apologize for my opinion and I take responsibility for my words.

This hurts so much.

So he shouldn't listen to his fans but he should listen to you? I think there's some issues in your logic, especially because you have no weight in this community.

Critique from fans is as bland as it from a grandmother- it's nice to have, but it's never going to be blunt and honest.

Just to sum things up for you...you're a dick and see yourself off of this site. Thank you and good bye.

i really am getting confused - should I man up and fight you, or run away and never come back? I don't intend to spend my life bothering everyone here, so don't expect me to stick around much longer after this discussion is over.

[eatcomics]

AH MAI GAWD! TEXT WALL!!!!

Seriously bro, your helping absolutely no one in this community.

Perhaps if you took some initiative to actually contribute people would have higher regards to you.

I know what you're thinking. "But eatcomics, you clever clever boy, I've posted my opinions in several threads! How canst thou say that I am not contributing?!"
The answer to this lies in the fact you've been nothing but hostile your entire visit. I strongly believe that that is the reason falco behaved hostile towards you on IRC. At this rate you sir will surely be banned. If you'd like to help try constructive criticsm instead of telling people on their art to "Try harder" you could give them some examples of your own art, or some tutorials you've learned from. Maybe you could post a code tutorial on lighting yourself instead of going all "BLARRAGL ur coad is slowar dan myne!?!: Larg, i cun lite shit betta." Note that thread was kinda old and the original poster hasn't posted here in at least a month....

now I say to you good sir, you've wasted a good 4 minutes of my time typing this because you prefer to be a dick. Now put out or get out.

[pubby8]

If it makes you happy, I will spend some time and be helpful in other posts.

And yeah, I hate how you type for a while and suddenly you realize you have massive wall of text.

[eatcomics]

If it makes you happy, I will spend some time and be helpful in other posts.

And yeah, I hate how you type for a while and suddenly you realize you have massive wall of text.

Thank you. My respect for you has just gone up. Please keep this up :D

[Arce]

[BugInTheSYS]

Basically what he's doing here is exactly what he announced. If I may just quote...

I joined here because you guys piss me off - and so I can get into pointless arguments with assholes.

Wow! What an attitude. It really spreads productivity and motivation!
Who let him in, guys, tell me...

[Arce]

I would like to express my sincere gratitude to ALL the members of the community.

Topics like this used to fill me with anger, cause me to post a long, pompous retorts and express my disdain toward this type of attitude.

Now, however, I feel nothing but flattery. To those being labeled "Fanboys" due to an actual understanding of our project, you have my apologies. To those willing to take the time to respond to the critics of our team, for or against, you are a great source of motivation to me. Thanks.

To Pubby8, I simply want you to understand that I feel more than justified in labeling you as "Troll" and disregarding much of what you have said. Not only this, but I feel you are missing fundamentals in work ethic that I value as an individual. Your post(s) have conveyed noting to me but a general dis-contempt on your part, and that you are desperately seeking to open up a public "Look at me! I'm Better!" discussion. Sadly, some battles cannot be won, and the best move is simply not to play. What you call cowardice, I call maturity. Nothing you have presented in this topic is news to me, my team, or members of the community. Your criticism has been read thoroughly, considered, responded to be a large portion of the ES team, and granted a large amount of humility. Allow us to agree to disagree, and please understand that I now have very little respect for you. I understand that this likely flows both ways--however, seeing as it is you attempting to alter MY actions (and not the other way around), perhaps you should consider a change of tactics?

Best Regards,
TheAmazingArce.