"nD" - Indie Game Development Handheld

[Aleios]

I'm one of those people who need to see it before it can believe it. Unless there is a full rundown on the specs, proper documentation and a live example, i simply wont believe it isn't a scam.
Also, sure, it (uses?) SDL, of which i am familiar with. But just because the SDL api has documentation, its doesn't mean you can go all half-assed on your own documentation. So simply, if it turns out to be good, i shall take a stab at it. Also, i would want to know if it allows for the usage of OpenGL and/or OpenAL, otherwise i would have to figure out some other way of handling crap. Oh and also i would want to know how the filesystem on it works. They cant call it "Open" if i dont have access to this.

off-topic:
how was my English by the way?

[Falco Girgis]

^ spoken like a true American. I agree, and your English sounds native.

[TheBuzzSaw]

I'm one of those people who need to see it before it can believe it. Unless there is a full rundown on the specs, proper documentation and a live example, i simply wont believe it isn't a scam.
Also, sure, it (uses?) SDL, of which i am familiar with. But just because the SDL api has documentation, its doesn't mean you can go all half-assed on your own documentation. So simply, if it turns out to be good, i shall take a stab at it. Also, i would want to know if it allows for the usage of OpenGL and/or OpenAL, otherwise i would have to figure out some other way of handling crap. Oh and also i would want to know how the filesystem on it works. They cant call it "Open" if i dont have access to this.

Don't count on OpenGL or OpenAL support. It's been made pretty clear that it is focusing on CPU horsepower (400 MHz ARM processors), and the API will consist of SDL and all of its children (including SDL_mixer). There is no GPU to speak of in this thing, but it's not the end of the world. With a resolution of 320x240, software-accelerated graphics should be more than adequate.

[Falco Girgis]

A 200mhz SH4 in the Dreamcast can software render more than adequately to a 320x240 framebuffer. I have no doubt that it has more than the balls to do what is advertised.

...I just disagree with the method of advertising, don't think the price is anywhere near realistic, and don't see this happening. Make me eat my words, though.

[Milch]

Seems cool - but I'm pretty sure that this thing won't be released.
It seems that a bunch of guys simply had this cool idea and that there is no actual funding/blueprints/whatever behind it.
Just some mockup stuff.

edit:
forgot to mention: If this thing supports wifi, this would be the coolest thing ever! (imagine, a room full of people playing games on this thing)

[BugInTheSYS]

(imagine, a room full of people playing games on this thing)

lol, I don't quite see that; as of now, with the DS, it is certainly possible. thet rly doesn't mean it happens though. except at Nintendo's fair booths

[TheBuzzSaw]

Also, I partially retract my statement regarding OpenGL. While I still doubt we'll see "real" 3D applications, I forgot that with Linux at its core, the MESA driver is more than adequate with providing OpenGL 2.1 support. It will probably perform like crap, but it may very well be supported regardless!

[Aleios]

Also, I partially retract my statement regarding OpenGL. While I still doubt we'll see "real" 3D applications, I forgot that with Linux at its core, the MESA driver is more than adequate with providing OpenGL 2.1 support. It will probably perform like crap, but it may very well be supported regardless!

Ahh i see, and i don't know what was going through my mind when i was hoping for OpenGL and OpenAL support... I thought to myself afterwards, "wait a minute... portable device... fuck."

...I just disagree with the method of advertising, don't think the price is anywhere near realistic, and don't see this happening. Make me eat my words, though.

I agree with your disagreement of their advertising methods, fully agree.

[M_D_K]

The main problem I have with this besides everything already said is that price tag, no way are they gonna sell at cost for $20.

Lets do a run down of the cost of parts (we'll assume actual assembly is free ). Now when actually making commercial electronics, it's better to buy in bulk, it's an inverse here making less units does not mean you're spending less as the cost of each component goes up. Most component manufacturers tend to work by the thousand.

A 400MHz ARM processor
This is a total guessitmate based on the fact that you can grab a single 1GHz ARM SoC with dedicated GPU (PowerVR) for $40 (and that's for 1!), I'll say it'll probably cost ya about $8,000 for 1k (or $8 for 1) 400MHz ARM SoCs.

16MB of RAM
While RAM is dirt cheap there's 2 ways this can go. They use SRAM or DRAM, it really comes down to trade offs, SRAM use less power but you can't really get the density you see in DRAM. Or you can get nice big piles of RAM at the cost of battery life.
If you went for 16MB of SRAM you'd have to spend about $34,000 for 1k units (and that's with bulk buy discount).

With DRAM it'd cost ya $4,940 for 1k units (at $4.94 a pop).

WiFi module
Okay this one will put you over $20 on it's own. A decent wifi module (by decent I mean it operates at 2.4GHz and can at least support 802.11b) will usually run around $26 (if you were buying the one); for a 1k reel you might get the cost per module down to around $18 and change (guesstimate). So that'll be around the $18,000 mark.

Built in rechargeable battery pack
For something like this, you're gonna want 1200mAh minimum (that's like 9 AA batteries, which makes using AA totally out of the question). An off the shelf pack will cost (when buying 1k of em) around $13-$15, so anywhere from $13,000 to $15,000. Of course off the shelf may not be an option if it's too big, if that happens you'll have to shell out more for a moulded pack (custom cost money!) and it'll probably be Lithium polymer which is kinda pricey but gives great performance (it has excellent charge/discharge characteristics).

Screen
Lets just say not cheap unless you know where to score a shit ton of out of production screens from 5 years ago. Which is a bad idea since they'd be out of production (so you're stuck with what you got pretty much). When you're doing this kinda stuff you need to know that in a few years those components you've used will still be around and are in active production.

Built in persistent memory
They say it'll have 2GB for the base model (copying apple much), you stick 2GB in that and you're stepping over the price line on purpose. Seriously, they should just stick an SD card slot or two on it (it would work out cheaper - see below).

Okay, 2GB of flash memory will cost about $20,280 for 1k (meaning 1 will cost $20.28). Over $20 on memory alone and it only gets steeper if you're gonna have more memory in different models (seriously, it wasn't cool when Apple did it).

On the other hand if you just stuck an sd card slot on it, it would cost $2,400 (not for the connector but the right to do it). See you need to be part of the SD association or something to make SD host products. It costs $2,400 annually. The connectors would be $1,200 for 1k ($1.20 for 1).

PCB
This is kinda hard to say since the price varies by fabrication house, but chances are it'll be either a 4 or 8 layer PCB (really depends how good they are at laying tracks). The more layers you add the more the price goes up.

So working of that limited picture (I'm not covering things like caps and resistors since their cost is minuet) an nD (base unit) will cost ya $92.28 (with SRAM) or $65.22 (with DRAM) on the low end if they make em in 1k batches.

With that, I call bullshit on the nD's price tag...

P.S. I wrote this up cause I was really bored.

[TheBuzzSaw]

Good report, M_D_K, but this is why it will be so interesting to see how it turns out. The world had a million technical reasons why OnLive could never work, and it is flying strong today. :]

Granted, it is definitely a distinct possibility that this whole project will fall flat on its face. We shall see.

[Tom_leonardsson]

there is a video out of him showing it....

[Falco Girgis]

Screen
Lets just say not cheap unless you know where to score a shit ton of out of production screens from 5 years ago. Which is a bad idea since they'd be out of production (so you're stuck with what you got pretty much). When you're doing this kinda stuff you need to know that in a few years those components you've used will still be around and are in active production.

Now, now, my good MDK. Lets not forget that not only have they promised a screen, but they've also promised a back-lit LCD screen like the GBA SP's.

there is a video out of him showing it....

And? Not a single person here is arguing that it is an impossible feat. Of course it's possible. We're just saying that the alleged pricetag is bullshit. I bet his development prototype easily cost well over $100 to create.

[TheBuzzSaw]

You know why the nD is already awesome? It's spawns discussions on The Chaos Rift.

[Falco Girgis]

You know why the nD is already awesome? It's spawns discussions on The Chaos Rift.

Agreed. I need to start working on schematics for my own handheld console... tentatively priced at $100 for booze and cigars for me.

[TheBuzzSaw]

You know why the nD is already awesome? It's spawns discussions on The Chaos Rift.

Agreed. I need to start working on schematics for my own handheld console... tentatively priced at $100 for booze and cigars for me.

Hop to it. Can I create the API for it?